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Gulf Oil Spill Velocimetry-Based Flow Rate Estimate |
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| May18-10, 08:51 PM | #1 |
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Gulf Oil Spill Velocimetry-Based Flow Rate Estimate
In the thread in P&WA on the issue of the oil spill, I expressed my skepticism that the rate of the spill could be accurately measured via analysis of underwater video clips. That skepticism was strengthened by the recent statement by Prof Steven Wereley, the originator of the first such estimate, that his earlier estimate was "consderably" low, despite his previous claim of a 20% margin for error. So I'd like to gain a better understanding of his method and if it is reasonable to believe it can be accurate in this case.
For background information.... Here is the wiki on particle image velocimetry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_image_velocimetry Here is the Wereley's 1998 patent on the subject: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...ND+velocimetry Here is Wereley's 2006 patent on the subject: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...ND+velocimetry |
| May18-10, 09:03 PM | #2 |
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Well here is the problem so far I have only seen clips from one of the places the oil is leaking and it looks like a ton of oil is coming out. However I heard from cnn that there are multiple places the oil is leaking from. If I could see all the places the oil is coming from I would just add about how much oil is coming out at any moment and then just do the math to figure out how much should have came out factoring for that the oil probably came out faster as more pressure when the oilfield first started to leak. I mean im not totally sure the people in charge of this even know the main places it's leaking. I heard someone suggest droping an atomic bomb down there to try and seal it up however at that pressure im not sure what an atom bomb will do to seal anything. I saw a video on how to extract oil from water with straw. It might be a good idea to buy some straw for your drinking water in the far future depending on how bad this gets.
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| May18-10, 09:10 PM | #3 |
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The primary source of skepticism about this method could be accurately applied to the gulf oil spill is the quality of the video. The video is low resolution and presumably shot at a pretty high shutter speed due to the depth, which presumably would make it very difficult to lock-on to particles and track them to measure their velocity.
Here's the primary claim from the first patent: The 2003 patent appears to me to be a microscopic version of the same thing. From a company specializing in the technique: |
| May18-10, 09:25 PM | #4 |
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Gulf Oil Spill Velocimetry-Based Flow Rate Estimate
If I could get my hands on the size of the oilfield I could probably just figure it out by factoring for the size of the pipe the oil travels out of with all pressures and stuff...
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| May19-10, 06:08 PM | #5 |
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| May19-10, 08:53 PM | #6 |
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Perhaps you could see he would be willing to address these concerns here? You never know, and his info is available at the Purdue U site https://engineering.purdue.edu/Engr/...ource_id=11641 . Divining what his methodology is from, a 12 and 4 year old patent respectively seems to be more amusing than scientific.
How does this square with a similar estimate using pencil and paper by Chiang? In addition, when we know that surface estimates are meaningless in the presence of deep plumes, and the use of dispersants at such a depth? |
| May20-10, 06:31 PM | #7 |
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I'm new here and unfamiliar with the rules on specificity to subject matter being discussed so please excuse me for introducing a tangential question about the oil leak. I recently asked this question in Earth forum but it seems I should have asked it here.
According to news media sources the vast majority of the oil is either slowly settling to the bottom, billowing around at various depths, or slowly surfacing. Nobody seems to know. I've been thinking that the potential impact of the leak would depend on the answer. I've been wondering how much the density of the crude is affected by the pressures at that depth. These long chain hydrocarbons are subject to compressibility so density should increase. But, enough to keep the stuff down there? My tech college math skills are thirty years unused and not in the engineering field, so basically I'm a layman. came across this but I'm unsure of how to apply it, or even whether it's pertinent to the question: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/bu...ity-d_585.html Can anyone tell how the pressure is affecting the density of the stuff? |
| May20-10, 07:27 PM | #8 |
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Hi gwangi,
C16H34: 34 lb/ft3 C24H50: 50 lb/ft3 C30H62: 52 lb/ft3 From this, it looks like these hydrocarbons are less dense than seawater, so they should come to the surface. Why is there a layer of these hydrocarbons reported deep under the surface? I don't know... |
| May20-10, 07:32 PM | #9 |
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| May20-10, 08:24 PM | #10 |
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| May20-10, 08:54 PM | #11 |
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Apparently the traditional standard spill model used is the Worldwide Oil Spill Model (WOSM)
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/sta...umber=00607708 |
| May21-10, 12:26 PM | #12 |
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From my post in the politics forum, here are the differences I see between the measurement methods he's patented and what is available to him with the gulf spill:
1. Low-speed photography, using a standard camera. 2. Poor light source (no laser or strobe light). 3. Opaque fluid. 4. No pre-selected, suspended particles. 5. No specialized depth-of-field focusing. 6. Uncertain opening size (even if he got the size right, breaking-off a pipe can change the geometry of the outlet). 7. Unstable flow. 8. Uncertain and inconsistent mixture of liquid and gas. 9. Uncertain camera angle. |
| May21-10, 12:29 PM | #13 |
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What I'm searching for myself is for any reference that says it is possible to do the measurements without such features, not personal opinions of laypeople that it should still be possible. |
| May21-10, 12:31 PM | #14 |
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I still wonder, with so many ROVs and so much access, why is the US government, BP, and other not using test particles in the effluent and reaching averages? This would seem to be critical in any attempt to back-fill, given the need to understand the pressures involved. |
| May21-10, 12:40 PM | #15 |
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| May21-10, 12:49 PM | #16 |
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| May21-10, 01:12 PM | #17 |
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The method does not image single particles nor track the movement of single particles.
The field of view is segmented and Auto-correlation is performed on Fourier transforms of "snapshots" of assemblies of particles at different times to extract flow fields - so the particles are used as markers for the bulk fluid flow. In this case, I assume, the frames are used instead of laser flash illumination. Auto-correlation in Fourier space has a similar effect to confocal imaging, it decreases the depth of focus of the conventional image (preferentially weights the contribution of particles that are exatly at the plane of focus). |
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