Why is Asperger's considered a form of autism?


by GreatEscapist
Tags: asperger, autism, considered, form
zoobyshoe
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#55
Jun8-10, 08:28 PM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
That's not OCD, OCD is a compulsion to do something, usually repetitively, even while you know it's crazy. Like tapping on door knobs until it feels right, jumping into the air when a plane flies over, placing your feet together pointing east when a toilet flushes.
I think she meant OCPD, not OCD. People often use the terms interchangably. People diagnosed with one often also have the other, so some people aren't aware there is a difference.
Evo
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#56
Jun8-10, 08:46 PM
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I could be accused of having OCPD except, I AM the only one qualified to get the work done, and I *must* do it myself if it is to get done correctly or at all. I would normally work 16 hours a day and exclude family and friends.

I don't think OCPD describes the violent outburst she described.
zoobyshoe
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#57
Jun8-10, 09:09 PM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
I could be accused of having OCPD except, I AM the only one qualified to get the work done, and I *must* do it myself if it is to get done correctly or at all. I would normally work 16 hours a day and exclude family and friends.
Hehehehehe.

I don't think OCPD describes the violent outburst she described.
In the true spirit of OCPD let's make a meticulous check and see what she actually said:

We all are a little OCD, but Aspie's go to the extreme- "IF YOU TOUCH MY VIDEO GAMES I. WILL. KILL. YOU."
"...but Aspie's go to the extreme..."

She is not ascribing the outburst to OCD or OCPD, but to Asperger's.
Evo
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#58
Jun9-10, 11:46 AM
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Quote Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
In the true spirit of OCPD let's make a meticulous check and see what she actually said:

"...but Aspie's go to the extreme..."

She is not ascribing the outburst to OCD or OCPD, but to Asperger's.
She also said "OCD develops because, honestly, that really is a part of Asperger's". Which I mistakenly took to mean that the OCD+Asperger's caused violent outbursts. The Aspie's I've known might have harbored anger, but were too conflicted (not really sure how to describe it) to have public outbursts. They always went out of their way to avoid showing emotions, or rather couldn't show them due to anxiety/fear.

I've tried to have them explain to me how they feel and view things, but they withdraw.
zoobyshoe
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#59
Jun9-10, 01:11 PM
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Quote Quote by mikekhogan447 View Post
Temple Grandin, a famous HFA, also speaks of a memory of concrete images and sensory impressions, rather like watching a movie. This eidetic proficiency might be the flip side of an extreme sensitivity to sensory information, which can lead to unpleasant sensory overload. The sensory impressions are not chunked, abstracted, or simplified.
Yesterday afternoon I re-read the chapter on Temple Grandin in An Anthropologist On Mars. The sensory distortions of her childhood were, as I thought earlier, amplifications of sensory imput to the point of pain, and (which I had forgot) anesthesia for certain sensory experiences. A kind of all or nothing imbalance.

Her eidetic memory consists of being able to replay sections of her past as if they were film clips, as you say. These film clips go back to infancy! The trouble with this method is that each clip is of a certain length as has to be played from start to finish. She can't cue them up anywhere she wants. She has to watch the whole episode.

The clips are literal and detailed. There is no imagery or symbolism or conceptual mnemonic. (Luria's mnemonist had a whole different system entirely. Sacks brings him up by contrast and stresses he was not autistic.)

Speculating here: it seems that if your perceptions in infancy and childhood were distorted by amplification and anesthesia you would have no opportunity to develop awareness of, and sensitivity to, social cues, body language, etc. How do you pay attention to tone of voice when your main experience of it is that it is painfully loud? I can imagine that autistic kids might well be born with all the proper hardware for this but that it never gets properly programmed.

If anyone knows the story of the 13 year old girl who was discovered imprisoned in a room by her parents since infancy here in San Diego, who was never taught to speak, you will be aware that there is a delicate window of opportunity for learning. The girl was never able to learn to speak fluently, and today, in middle age, still can only manage a kind of pigdin. So, the cause of the "theory of mind" deficits might be that when the window for learning this type of thing is open they are too overwhelmed by other problems, so the capacity atrophies.
GreatEscapist
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Jun9-10, 01:13 PM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
She also said "OCD develops because, honestly, that really is a part of Asperger's". Which I mistakenly took to mean that the OCD+Asperger's caused violent outbursts. The Aspie's I've known might have harbored anger, but were too conflicted (not really sure how to describe it) to have public outbursts. They always went out of their way to avoid showing emotions, or rather couldn't show them due to anxiety/fear.

I've tried to have them explain to me how they feel and view things, but they withdraw.
Because we feel the same thing as you, we just express it differently. And asking us about feelings is like a judgment. And as I've said before, that's the scariest thing. At least to me.

And no, I really mean OCD. We've gone to such lengths to fix something (Like making sure that all the videogames have been touched in a certain order, and placed in an order) that it's kind of disheartening to have someone screw it up.

I'm personally not like that. But I know a lot of people who are like that, and they have Asperger's.
zoobyshoe
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#61
Jun9-10, 01:29 PM
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Quote Quote by GreatEscapist View Post
And no, I really mean OCD. We've gone to such lengths to fix something (Like making sure that all the videogames have been touched in a certain order, and placed in an order) that it's kind of disheartening to have someone screw it up.
I'm curious why you have to touch them in a certain order. What does that do?
GreatEscapist
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#62
Jun9-10, 01:40 PM
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Quote Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
I'm curious why you have to touch them in a certain order. What does that do?
I'm not sure- I don't usually do that.
And the times I do it is because I feel jittery unless I do.
zoobyshoe
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#63
Jun9-10, 01:55 PM
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Quote Quote by GreatEscapist View Post
I'm not sure- I don't usually do that.
And the times I do it is because I feel jittery unless I do.
Interesting.

Incidentally, what is your big field of interest?
GreatEscapist
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#64
Jun9-10, 06:01 PM
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Quote Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
Interesting.

Incidentally, what is your big field of interest?
It depends on my mood. Either playing my fiddle, or physics, or medical science.

I used to love dinosaurs. And I mean love them. I think I've forgotten more about dinosaurs than most people learn in their lifetime.
zoobyshoe
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Jun9-10, 06:07 PM
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Quote Quote by GreatEscapist View Post
It depends on my mood. Either playing my fiddle, or physics, or medical science.

I used to love dinosaurs. And I mean love them. I think I've forgotten more about dinosaurs than most people learn in their lifetime.
When I was a kid I couldn't get enough of dinosaurs. I had a whole collection of plastic ones.

Do you think there are any differences in girl Aspies? That they're not the same as male Aspies? (Aside from the obvious gender difference everyone has.)
GreatEscapist
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Jun9-10, 06:30 PM
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Quote Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
When I was a kid I couldn't get enough of dinosaurs. I had a whole collection of plastic ones.

Do you think there are any differences in girl Aspies? That they're not the same as male Aspies? (Aside from the obvious gender difference everyone has.)
I think Asperger's is different in everyone.

But yeah, there have been clinical differences. Girls are better at the social interactions, but can be more sensitive. Girl Aspie's aren't supposed to be as noticeable as boys. It's been a stereotype that Asperger's kids don't show emotion, and are very cold- girls rarely have this demeanor.
rhody
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#67
Jun9-10, 06:31 PM
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apeiron, zooby,

I will try to clarify post #42.

Neurotransmitter regulation of neuronal outgrowth, plasticity and survival

Conclusion below: I tried to state unsuccessfully before that the communication mechanism(s) used by:
bacteria: inter, intra-species
neurotransmitters: inter-synaptic functions, extra-synaptic functions
look haunting familiar to one another, suggesting that some theory underlie the behavior of both, and that theory contributes to the variety, number, density and distribution of neurotransmitters and how they are created play a role in autism, asperberger's, as it does for bacterial behavior, inter, intra-species, and how they communicate and launch coordinated attacks against a host.

Considering this, do either of you believe this is possible ?
Screen grabs below from the TED video.
Maybe I am trying to see a connection that really isn't there, however, something made me take a harder look. Sometimes you have to travel down paths to dead ends, sometimes you get lucky.

This was the point I tried to make unsuccessfully last time.









Rhody...
Freeman Dyson
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Jun9-10, 07:45 PM
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Quote Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
When I was a kid I couldn't get enough of dinosaurs. I had a whole collection of plastic ones.

Do you think there are any differences in girl Aspies? That they're not the same as male Aspies? (Aside from the obvious gender difference everyone has.)
I think it is much harder for a girl to be "different" in general. I mean a guy in the "special" class when young can shake that stigma easier. He can fit into more social groups. Especially as time goes by. It is at least slightly more accepted and expected. A girl in the special class seems like social death to me. Much harder to deal with. A girl with Aspergers brought this point up to me and I think it makes sense.

Aspergers=sensory bombardment. Turn the ****ing noise down. I don't want to hear any noises when I try to read. Just everything is magnified. Even touch. Clothing is an irritant. Shirts have to be broken in and worn many times to be tolerable. There is less distinction between signal and noise.

This is a kid's book that I think actually sums up a lot of the symptons and experience pretty well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSMw-noNcnY
apeiron
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Jun9-10, 07:46 PM
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Yes, mechanisms may be similar, but then what is it you are suggesting? That the essential cause of neurodevelopmental differences like autism, etc, is due to faulty "group behaviour genes"? Or is it something about the cross-species story of bacteria you are getting at?

Remember that bacteria are promiscuous buggers and pass all sorts of genes across species. But this is not the case for higher animals (though viral segments and other stuff can get worked into our genomes - around 3% by some estimates).

To step back, the presumption is that neurodevelopmental disorders occur because neurodevelopment gets derailed. An array of inter-cell signalling is involved in getting a brain to construct itself correctly. This is an immensely complex story. And so it is easy to imagine dozens of ways the process could be derailed.

The bacteria connection you are making seems nothing special because bacteria, like all cells, also make heavy use of receptors and signalling systems. So what is it about them that suggests a specific derailing mechanism?
GreatEscapist
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#70
Jun9-10, 07:47 PM
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Quote Quote by Freeman Dyson View Post
I think it is much harder for a girl to be "different" in general. I mean a guy in the "special" class when young can shake that stigma easier. He can fit into more social groups. Especially as time goes by. It is at least slightly more accepted and expected. A girl in the special class seems like social death to me. Much harder to deal with. A girl with Aspergers brought this point up to me and I think it makes sense.

Aspergers=sensory bombardment. Turn the ****ing noise down. I don't want to hear any noises when I try to read. Just everything is magnified. Even touch. Clothing is an irritant. Shirts have to be broken in and worn many times to be tolerable. There is less distinction between signal and noise.

This is a kid's book that I think actually sums up a lot of the symptons and experience pretty well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSMw-noNcnY
I've gotten used to the sensory stuff, and tried very hard to get over it. Sound was mine.
And it was never an issue- just loud. And curious.

And yes, social norms are hard to fit into.
zoobyshoe
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#71
Jun13-10, 07:14 AM
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On Monday evening I'm supposed to meet an autistic savant. Her savant skills are art, and teaching herself foreign languages. She's also synesthetic, music -> colors. Should be interesting.
rhody
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#72
Jun13-10, 04:45 PM
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Quote Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
On Monday evening I'm supposed to meet an autistic savant. Her savant skills are art, and teaching herself foreign languages. She's also synesthetic, music -> colors. Should be interesting.
Wow, considering your communication skills and firm background in art and neurology I am sure there should be some interesting stories to tell. Possibly get her to join and have a peek at the synesthesia thread perhaps ?

Rhody...


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