TIME DILATION. WHY do clocks that are

sisoev

The "turning around" event has no special meaning in the experiment, ghwellsjr
It is "experienced" from the other brother the same way as the brother who executes the event. The only difference is that if the real turn is to right, the other brother sees it as to left.
Once they start approaching each other in straight line, the tings are the same.
Both of them will observe the events with the same rate ratio.

DaleSpam

You will have to explain the difference and the relevance then. How do you transform from the frequency "representation" to the actual speed?

The only thing in doubt is your understanding of physics.

I will look forward to it. Your description of the garage door paradox is unclear, so a picture would be useful.

sisoev

This will come with the experiment I intend to present with graphics.

DaleSpam, talking to you is like talking to my teacher and I appreciate your patience. I really do.

I cannot add more to the way I see the ladder experiment.
My point is that we cannot treat an overlapping simultaneous events like a simultaneity since the light from them brings information only for one of them.
To elaborate; if the simultaneous events are aligned with the observer, there will not be light information for the back event, because it is simultaneous with the front.
We know about the back event, but we cannot deal with its light information because it is absent for us.
If we take this in to account, we will see that the explanation for the ladder paradox fails.
Therefore the rod contraction is false too.
Hence, the theory of relativity stands incorrect.

DaleSpam

This is factually incorrect. An accelerometer carried by one brother detects the g-forces of the turnaround, and an accelerometer carried by the other does not. The frequency of the pulses from the other brother changes immediately for one brother (the same one that detects the g-forces) and not for the other. The experiences of the two brothers are not the same.

DaleSpam

What do you even mean by the phrase "overlapping simultaneous events"?

sisoev

Aligned with the observer.

DaleSpam

How is an event aligned with anything, let alone an observer? When I use the word "aligned" I mean that two things which have some associated direction or axis are parallel. Events do not have a direction or an axis. Do you mean something like the event is on the observer's worldline?

sisoev

Well, an event is actually light information for an observer.
Now, align the light information for the two simultaneous events with the observer and you'll have the information only for the front event.

DaleSpam

No, an event is a given place at a given time. I.e. the airplanes crashed at an altitude of 2 miles, at lattitude 45º, longitude 30º, at 3:00 pm. That is an event. The light emanating from that event forms a light cone with the origin at the event. The event is a 0-dimensional set, the light cone is a 3-dimensional set.

Are you simply saying something to the effect that opaque objects (like garage doors) absorb light so you lose information about things on the other side of the object? If so, then simply make the doors out of glass.

sisoev

The g-force doesn't only change the frequency of the emitted signals, but also the frequency of the perceived ones.

DaleSpam

Do you agree that only one of the twins measures g-forces?

Denius1704

I think he is trying to say that how can we see any light reflected from the back door (so as to give the perception of it opening later than the front door) if that said back door opened at exactly the same time as the front one. Where would the information of that back door opening be carried and how would we perceive it? That is if i'm understanding his argument correctly.

sisoev

No, an event is a light information.
No light information - no observation of an event.
If we don't observe an event we cannot measure its values.
You can set a values for non-observed event, like in the explanation of the ladder paradox but that holds the risk to create new paradox, and I think that SR has already enough of them ;)

What I am saying is that if you turn two book pages at once you'll see the first and the third.
Hope that this is easy enough to picture it out :)

sisoev

Yes, how couldn't I :)

Denius1704

When i suggested the example i thought we all agreed that there is no turnaround event, so what g-forces are we talking about now?

Imagine the guy from Earth was watching the one moving away and then the next second moving towards him. Why would the light need more time to reach the Earth guy all of a sudden if it was reaching him just fine until the last moment of moving away? If we are imagining an uninterrupted flow of light from the moment of departure to the moment the moving brother switches directions, i imagine the image the Earth brother would receive would be a sudden shift from the 1/2 rate to the 2 rate. And the same thing would occur for the moving brother as well, like a "mirror" as sisoev suggested.

Now, apparently my imagination is very wrong and the logic i am using as well, otherwise SR would not exist today. What i am asking for is not answers such as "you are wrong" and "well that doesn't happen because it's been accounted for", but instead to be shown where my logic breaks, at which point? I am not asking for mathematical equations, because when a client comes to me to explain to him a problem with the software i don't start talking to him in 0's and 1's, but instead i try and talk his language, the one he understands. Otherwise we will be sitting on this thread for weeks everyone saying the same things not understanding the others.

And for the sake of eliminating any kind of G-Force lets imagine both brother in space in their own respective space ships, with the moving ship being equipped with inertial dampeners (or whatever they call them in the movies these days) so that if there is ANY kind of change in acceleration it will not be felt at all by either the ship or the person in the ship.

DaleSpam

No, this is incorrect. An event is something which happens at a given place at a given instant of time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_(relativity)
http://www.colvir.net/prof/richard.b...el-an/rela.htm
http://www.hep.uiuc.edu/home/g-golli...ativity_7.html

Sure, pages are opaque. No big deal, just make the garage doors partially transparent.

DaleSpam

Since you agree that one twin measures the g forces and the other twin does not then it is clear that the twins experience the turnaround differently. So your earlier claim is not correct:
The brother who executes the turn experiences g forces, the other does not. It is not experienced the same way.