Advices for a career in high energy physics

[oyolasigmaz]

Hi everyone--

This is my first post here, and I don't want this thread to look one of those that is created on every forum resulting on google, helplessly seeking help. I have been reading this forum for some time, and I guess I can ask for some academical advice and guidance. I believe it is going to be a little long, because I will try to go into detail.

I'm a mathematics student, double majoring in physics, and planning to pursue an academical career in high energy physics, and specifically, in a mathematically rigorous part of it. I want to go to a god-tier instutition when I graduate from here, so I try to plan what I need to do beforehand. I am currently a sophomore, I have had some common core courses the last year that set me off -in my opinion at least- a little bit, but it is a university policy anyways. My university does not offer every course I wish to take, so I have to plan indepent studies, or go to another school around to take such courses. My first question is, what should I learn, before grad school, to be ready for high energy physics? I thought of some as:

Lie algebras (for representations of elementary particles)
Differential geometry and relativity (I think I won't really need differential geometry other than relativity, so a combined course might be nice)
Functional analysis
Operator algebras (if I can finish up with functional analysis early)

What else should I learn before going to grad school? Another thing is, I plan to finish the college in 3.5 years; but is it something good or bad with options like:

-3.5 years, as quick as possible. A few extra courses about what I wish to pursue, and that's it.
-4 years. I might get some master's classes, as I will have some time, and get more such classes as I have described as above.
-5 years (or 4.5). I may continue studying if I wish to since I have merit scholarship for 5 years. I can take tons of extra classes, many master's classes etc.

Which one would be better? Going for Ph.D. earlier? Getting prepared for it better? If getting prepared is good, aren't I going to take such classes in my graduate studies? Does it really make me save time/benefit somehow? Note that, please, if I finish my studies early, I want to go to a pre-Ph.D. program like the diploma programme in the Abdus Salam ICTP in Italy.

And what would be better for me to do during summers? I want to go for some research internship or classes, starting from my pre-junior summer. I already have a list -that I have collected over tons of programs- including Caltech, CERN, Fermilab, Princeton, LIGO, EPFL programs. Some of them are for research and some of them are for taking lectures, but I don't know which one to do this summer. Any guidance about this topic would be highly beneficial to me.

I was somewhat upset at first when I saw posts talking about taking 12 grad courses during undergrad or some other stuff that I cannot even think of, but I am just trying my best. I wanted to right almost all of my questions at once, so I am sorry it took that long, but any answer would make me very happy. Thanks a lot in advance.

Edit: I forgot to say that I am not from US, and not studying in there.

 

[negru]

Those four math courses will be very good. I'd recommend a full course on differential geometry (preferably Riemannian geometry - you'll use that stuff very often in gauge theories, string theory etc). Complex analysis is a must, if you haven't already included it. If you have time algebraic geometry will also be useful, but not really worth going out of your way to get it.

If your university doesn't offer everything you want to take, by all means do independent studies.

During the summer do research, not courses. If you don't get in any of the programs you mentioned, talk to profs at your own school.

 

[oyolasigmaz]

Thanks for your answer.

It would be nice to mention the classes I am going to take for the regular diploma program, I guess. For math, I will have, at the end, abstract algebra 1-2, linear algebra, single and multivariable calculus, advanced calculus, differentials, real analysis 1-2, complex analysis, topology, applied math, numerical methods, and a few area electives, but I think I will spend them on my independent studies. For physics, the list goes as classical mechanics 1-2, quantum mechanics 1-2, statistical physics, solid state physics, electromagnetism 1-2, and experimental physics. Both of the lists are not really exhaustive, but I try to make them so.

 

[oyolasigmaz]

I am sort of bumping this up, I wonder about different views, especially about finishing the college early.

 

[twofish-quant]

I'm a mathematics student, double majoring in physics, and planning to pursue an academical career in high energy physics, and specifically, in a mathematically rigorous part of it.

The faster you give up on this dream and find a new one, the happier you will be. The number of jobs in physics, especially HEP, is extremely small, and there are extremely strong odds that you won't be able to get your dream job in academia.

But the faster you give up your old dreams, the faster you'll be able to find new ones. The good news is that if you want to do math for the rest of your life, you'll be able to find something somewhere. If you think of your Ph.D. as something useful in itself, then you'll be able to spend 7-8 years doing something fun, and you'll be able to figure something out once you get the degree.

Another thing is, I plan to finish the college in 3.5 years

Unless you have a severe financial issue, this is a bad idea. You'll stress yourself out for no good reason. Also from a "how to live your life" point of view, it's a seriously bad thing to focus on physics to the exclusion of everything else.

 

[oyolasigmaz]

Why would you say so? I am somewhat aware of the scarcity, but what makes you think that I should definitely give up about it, besides the fact that I am 18 and I still haven't figured out something new? I mean, thanks for your advice anyways, but I just want to see if the problem is about me, or in general.

But besides, yes there is no financial issue. Actually, I have the scholarship to study for 5 years, if I want to. But, aren't I going to get such classes I could take in that last year if I go the graduate school? This is the thing I cannot really decide, so any comment on this is appreciated.

About "how to live your life" point of view, I guess I am doing fairly well. Not bad, at least. Thanks for the advice ,though I love focusing on physics in general

 

[twofish-quant]

Why would you say so? I am somewhat aware of the scarcity, but what makes you think that I should definitely give up about it

Because every thinks that they are special, but no one really is. The quicker you learn that, the more effective you will be. Making people think that they are special is how the system lies to people.

I'm not asking you to give up your dream. I'm asking you to think deeply about what your dream really is. Plan A for getting what you want will almost certainly not work, so you have to start thinking about Plans B, C, D, E, F, and G, and that means thinking about what you really want.

You should *assume* that plan A will not work, and think about Plans B-Z. The fraction of physics Ph.D.'s get academic positions is about 15% and that's *after* you get your Ph.D. You *might* get a position, but you should have your parachute ready in case you don't, which is why I think it's better to *assume* that you won't get a position since 15% is a lot closer to zero than it is to one.

I am 18 and I still haven't figured out something new? I mean, thanks for your advice anyways, but I just want to see if the problem is about me, or in general.

If you are typical of 18 year olds, you haven't had kids, and you've probably haven't been fired from a job, or failed in some really big way. Also, it's likely that you haven't fallen in love and out of love a few times, and you haven't had a romantic or professional relationship go seriously, seriously bad.

Also most undergraduates have been living in a world in which you pass tests and then if you make a good score you get promoted. What you'll quickly find is that the world doesn't work that way, and so you get busted even if you do everything right.

Learning about those things is just as important for your physics career as your course work. Once you are 30, your choice of career and lifestyle is going to be extremely strongly influenced by your family relationships and responsibilities, and thinking a few years about whether you want kids and what you want your life partner to be like is going to be far more important than getting out fast.

But, aren't I going to get such classes I could take in that last year if I go the graduate school? This is the thing I cannot really decide, so any comment on this is appreciated.

Masters and Ph.D.'s are very different things, but Ph.D. programs are self-directed. In any case, you are better off taking some classes that don't obviously have anything to do with your graduate program. For example, if you do a Ph.D. in physics, you aren't likely to have required courses in poetry, and having an extra year let's you go off the beaten path and take courses in something weird. Islamic architecture for example.

About "how to live your life" point of view, I guess I am doing fairly well. Not bad, at least. Thanks for the advice ,though I love focusing on physics in general

But "stuff will happen." Something that happened to me that nearly derailed my life was I had a near fatal accident that left me requiring serious medical care for several years, and I'm not altogether well now. While I was going through that, reading poetry and thinking about philosophy was pretty useful. History is also rather useful. You don't have the life experiences of a seventy year old, but you can get the received wisdom of other people.

The reason that this matters is that long term, it's stuff like near-fatal car accidents and personal relationships that will influence your career. One of the reasons I got out of academia, was that I was setting in a Babies R' US, and I decided that while I was OK with a post-doc salary, this wasn't the type of life I wanted for my kids, and spending some times thinking about *those* issues (do I want kids?) is something that you have time to do in college.

Then there is politics. Some of my friends were from Russia, and they were all being trained to be the Soviet scientific elite and looking forward to careers being physicists, when their country fell apart. Some of the more interesting conversations that I've had was from people that were in college in the late-1950's. In 1957, they were all pretty desperate looking for jobs, when Sputnik was launched and their world changed. The reason I mention that is that it's likely that something equally world changing will happen that will effect your career and life path. Look at the world and *think* about it.

There are people that think that the US is going to self-destruct in 15 years if it continues to go into debt. There are people that think that the US is going to self-destruct in 15 years if it *DOESN'T* go into debt. Having seen what happens to be physicists when their country either self-destruct or doesn't self-destruct makes me think that you'll be better off thinking about these sorts of issues, since those are going to have a bigger impact on your career than what classes you take.

Finally, I've come to the conclusion that something is basically wrong with society. I think that society is dividing itself into haves and have-nots, and the obsession that people have with careers is just s symptom of the fact that people are scared to death that they won't be one of the haves. I also think that academic structures have to *LIE* to students about their real chances of being a have rather than a have-not.

One thing that I learned in college was that if I don't like the world, then I can get angry and change it rather than accept, but doing that involves learning about politics, finance, and philosophy rather than just doing the assignments that people have given you.

Something else that is useful is to "question the question". I'm not giving you the type of answers I think you expected and part of what I hope I do is to have you think about the assumptions that you have about how the world works that you need to think about.

 

[twofish-quant]

Your chances of getting a tenured track position once you have a Ph.D. is about 1 in 10, and that's assuming that you finish the Ph.D.

Yes, you can tell yourself that you are particularly smart and bright, and that you will be one of the lucky ones, and if you believe that then go out and buy some lottery tickets. This sort of horrible unrealistic thinking is the type of thing that physicists are supposed to be against.

The reason that it happens is economics. You tell everyone that they are special. The work like dogs to be one of the have's. You give the prizes to the "winners", you take advantage of labor of the "losers" but then you throw them out like trash and the system continues. It only works because people think that they are winners. A lot of this sort of thinking comes from 16th century Calvinism, and you start to realize that this is happening once you read the Protestant Work Ethic by Max Weber.

Now you can argue that the system is good. You can also argue that physicists just shouldn't think about stuff like this, and that things are what they are and you really can't change the world. But wait a second. At least for me, the attraction of academia was that you were *supposed* to think deeply and change the world, and now you are telling me that I just should not question things and put my nose to the grindstone. That's not my dream.

You can put all your hopes that plan A will work out, but I think that's stupid and idiotic given that plan A won't work for 80-90% of people with physics Ph.D.'s, Once you *assume* that plan A won't work, then you can try to put together a plan B (which also probably won't work), but that involves trying to figure out what you really want.

For me, I want to spend my life thinking about stuff.

 

[oyolasigmaz]

Edit: I wrote something but didn't see the first message, I will edit this in a few hours.

 

[twofish-quant]

Just to give you an idea of what you are up against.

This is the web page that lists all of the open faculty positions in theoretical particle physics and the short list candidates. We are talking about 15 new jobs a year.

http://www.freewebs.com/heprumor/2009.html
http://www.freewebs.com/heppostdoc/
http://particle.physics.ucdavis.edu/rumor/doku.php

Any field in which all of the job openings are on a single web page (and not a long web page) should tell you something.

Saying that you want to be a tenured faculty member at a research university is a lot like saying that you want to play major league baseball. It's great to dream, and it's even great to work toward a crazy, unrealistic dream as long as you realize it is a crazy unrealistic dream, and have a backup plan.

And I should point out that last year there were about 8 times as many openings for rookie major league baseball players than they were for junior faculty positions in HEP.

 

[oyolasigmaz]

I decided to send twofish-quant a PM, but I am still open to ideas if anyone has something to say.