Capital Punishment: For or Against?

[marlon]

You argument for capital punishment seems to be that you don't want to pay with your tax money to keep a criminal in prison, you would prefer the less expensive option, and have them killed on the spot if possible, without the option of a retrial in the light of new evidence, without the legal rights we are used to..

Not at all. Look, this is getting quite stupid. I stated several times that i was NOT talking about the entire judicial process but only about the punishment. As i have told you before, your cheap tricks ain't going to work. I know that probably insults your intelligence but it is the truth. Sorry man, maybe you are just not THAT good.

Now usually in a thread where we are debating for and against capital punishment, someone, like myself, would start picking holes in your argument.

Ofcourse, but don't get angry if your "hole picking" is not as creative and insightful as you thought it would be.

Thats usually how a thread like this works, I would then give my reasons as to why I am against capital punishment, Gokul43201 outlined quiet well a stance I would back.

No need to bring in other people. We are talking with each other so don't reley on a third party to make your point.

You can state that till you are blue in the face, yet when you make a remark like:
You are damming the whole judicial system!

That's your personal opinion. Fine with me, but don't try to sell it as being "general knowledge".

Again, this thread isn't your own blog on "Why you are for capital punishment", There are > 3,000,000,000 people on earth, there are definitely people who want to forgive. I have seen it with my own eyes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2006/02_february/14/truth.shtml

LOL That is NOT documented proof at all. This is funny and sad at the same time. Don't try to be so "semi scientific" because your socalled proof does not even back up your own claims.

Do pretend to know what 3.000000000 people think. Also, it is not because a country does not practice capital punishment that the entire population is against it. Please, refrain from fulminating with general impressions of one guy. That is NOT proof. Only the pope can talk like that.

For example
So its not 'speculation' I have documented evidence, that people find closure through forgiveness, that forgiveness wouldn't come about through rage and condemning the Murderers to instantaneous death.

I repeat my previous answer and urge you too look for documented evidence on China's offical statement on capital punishment.

As for my words being immature and insulting, that wasnt my intention, it was to counter your ill thought out rant.

I know you wanted to counter my way of thinking but the arguments you use are so childish that i don't even want to take that answer into account. That is what i was saying. You cannot treat people like little children, just because YOU think you are "right".

marlon

 

[marlon]

I just saw this:



Marlon, so if a 16 year old boy has sex with his 15 year old Girlfriend, both who consented, yet the parents of the girl found out, and waved reg flags at the police for Statutory rape. The Boy is convicted, you want this boy to be killed!

here is the definition of Statutory rape, in case you didnt know what that was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape
This may be a better site for the definition:
http://www.umaine.edu/security/sexoffenses.htm
"# Statutory Rape - Nonforcible sexual intercourse with a person who is under the statutory age of consent. "

Yes, that boy would certainly be a candidate. Besides, i don't trust the "mutual consent" picture here because if a girl would tell her parents that she had sex and the parents react in a very negative way, there must be something really bad going on. Anyhow, that needs to be investigated during a trial.

The situation is not as simple as you would like it to be Anttech. SINCERE mutual consent is very difficult to prove.

But, in short, if the girl was really agreeing then NO, the boy should not be killed. I answered YES in the first place because i most cases like this, the mutual consent is NOT sincere and the girl was forced to agree. There is a different name for that, you know...

Also, all of this needs to be found out during a trial...i am just adding this because i want to prevent you from restating that i don't want to see a trial but just a conviction.

marlon

 

[Anttech]

Not at all. Look, this is getting quite stupid. I stated several times that i was NOT talking about the entire judicial process but only about the punishment. As i have told you before, your cheap tricks ain't going to work. I know that probably insults your intelligence but it is the truth. Sorry man, maybe you are just not THAT good

1) Good at what?
2) what cheap tricks?
3) Yes I know what you stated, but you go and contradict what you state, straight after stating it, as I already explained.

Ofcourse, but don't get angry if your "hole picking" is not as creative and insightful as you thought it would be.

Angry? I know English isn't your first language but it seems to me you are doing it on purpose now, please stop misrepresenting me. I am not angry nor do I care if you think I am, however counter to your belief that this thread, is your personal blog and a private conversation with me, it is in fact not. So I would prefer if you didnt try and project an emotion onto me that in fact I am not showing any signs of.

Do pretend to know what 3.000000000 people think. Also, it is not because a country does not practice capital punishment that the entire population is against it. Please, refrain from fulminating with general impressions of one guy. That is NOT proof. Only the pope can talk like that.

fulminating with general impressions of one guy? what on Earth is that supposed to mean and what has it got to do with what I wrote?

I repeat my previous answer and urge you too look for documented evidence on China's offical statement on capital punishment.

China? Is this a tangent argument regarding capital punishment or to do with what I posted?

The documented evidence I gave you was regarding people wanting to forgive criminals who commit crimes against them and their families, because it gave them closure. And yes it does come from a Christian belief system of which there are >1 Billion and closer to 2 Billion. Forgiveness is a core part of the belief system of this Billion or so people.
If you actually went to the link you might have found that it was to do with the Families of IRA victims who wanted to confront the Organisation who killed their loved ones to reconcile and in some instances forgive them. So they could move forward, not as Bitter and twisted individuals who wanted spiteful revenge but as more balanced individuals. Executing all the IRA 'murderers' would not have allowed this reconciliation to happen. So it is detrimental on the victims of crime, and society IMHO!

I find it interesting you want me to look up Chinas stance on Capital Punishment, as Human Rights watchdogs would agree with the statement that they have a rather poor track record with Human Rights, and not something *we* should be looking towards for guidance.

No need to bring in other people. We are talking with each other so don't reley on a third party to make your point.

I wasnt and am not relying on any 3rd party to make my point, if I was I would allow someone else to be here posting the argument against Capital Punishment.

I know you wanted to counter my way of thinking but the arguments you use are so childish that i don't even want to take that answer into account. That is what i was saying. You cannot treat people like little children, just because YOU think you are "right".

The Arguments I am using Against the use of capital punishment are as follows:

Capital Punishment does not work as a deterrent, people still do it [grave crimes] in there droves.
Capital Punishment costs more than Life imprisonment according to some solid sources.
Capital Punishment does not work as a correctional tool, as you cannot correct a dead person.
Capital Punishment is typically enforced by a judicial system that is in some instances not fit for purpose, and is in error regarding judging and convicting people.
Capital Punishment is a tool for revenge, which is an unhealthy, knee jerk reactionary force that will end up causing more damage than good to society. Revenge killings have no place in a modern Judicial System

IMHO Capital Punishment is not fit for its purpose, and should be scraped.

Now Marlon, that was my argument, it isn't childish, it is held by many people. In fact the country you live in, and are from, A democratic country of who the government has to bend to the will of the people scrapped it because its people didnt want it. All these people are not childish just because they don't agree with the Marlon fast-track execution solution for convicted fellons.

 

[Anttech]

Yes, that boy would certainly be a candidate. Besides, i don't trust the "mutual consent" picture here because if a girl would tell her parents that she had sex and the parents react in a very negative way, there must be something really bad going on. Anyhow, that needs to be investigated during a trial.

Heaven have mercy! Parents can find out in a number of way that wouldn't need the girl to tell them. Also the parents may have another number of reasons to react negatively... Do you need me to spell them out?

The situation is not as simple as you would like it to be Anttech. SINCERE mutual consent is very difficult to prove.

So if it is and you got your way A LOT of people would be executed...

But, in short, if the girl was really agreeing then NO, the boy should not be killed.

Glad to hear it,

I answered YES in the first place because i most cases like this, the mutual consent is NOT sincere and the girl was forced to agree.

And I suppose that is a fact right? I would tend to think the opposite. I know/knew a LOT of girls who lost there virginity before the age of consent... And I believe many posters here know girls like this too.. Maybe in your world, no girl unless forced or boy as it matters has sex before the age of consent, but not in the real world...

 

[marlon]

1) Good at what?
2) what cheap tricks?

Don't play dumb.

3) Yes I know what you stated, but you go and contradict what you state, straight after stating it, as I already explained.

No you did not. You BELIEVE you did but i assure you YOU DID NOT. Sorry.

Angry? I know English isn't your first language but it seems to me you are doing it on purpose now, please stop misrepresenting me. I am not angry nor do I care if you think I am, however counter to your belief that this thread, is your personal blog and a private conversation with me, it is in fact not. So I would prefer if you didnt try and project an emotion onto me that in fact I am not showing any signs of.

:rofl:

Well, actually English may be your first language but it seems to me that even in that case, you don't understand what i say. Fact is that your conclusion above is wrong and i have already explained why. Nobody is interested in your PERSONAl judgment of my participation in this thread. You do realize i could easily write that same emo-crap to you.

fulminating with general impressions of one guy? what on Earth is that supposed to mean and what has it got to do with what I wrote?

Because you conclude that over 3.000000000 people prefer to forgive. The article you call proof does NOT even state that. What really made me laugh is the fact you bring in Christianity. Theoretically, religion preaches forgivenis but that DOES NOT mean that people will follow these "rules" when being confronted with extreme crimes like rape. Grow up and stop being so, err, semi-ethical.

China? Is this a tangent argument regarding capital punishment or to do with what I posted?

Are you going to ask a clarification every time ? I urged you to look up China and i explained why. The conclusion of that search should prove the OPPOSITE of what you are saying (ie that the "majority of people" does not want capital punishment).

The documented evidence I gave you was regarding people wanting to forgive criminals who commit crimes against them and their families, because it gave them closure.

But "your" article does NOT prove the fact that over 3000000000 people think like that. I already said this. Sorry, but your conclusion is INCORRECT.

And yes it does come from a Christian belief system of which there are >1 Billion and closer to 2 Billion. Forgiveness is a core part of the belief system of this Billion or so people.

Well,...i have reacted to this, huh...

If you actually went to the link you might have found that it was to do with the Families of IRA victims who wanted to confront the Organisation who killed their loved ones to reconcile and in some instances forgive them. So they could move forward, not as Bitter and twisted individuals who wanted spiteful revenge but as more balanced individuals. Executing all the IRA 'murderers' would not have allowed this reconciliation to happen. So it is detrimental on the victims of crime, and society IMHO!

Yeah right, like all is forgiven now and ok. This is a naive picture which i do not believe. Besides, again this does not provge anything. This is just a bunch of impressions of a small amount of people. No way that they checked this with every IRA victim.

I find it interesting you want me to look up Chinas stance on Capital Punishment, as Human Rights watchdogs would agree with the statement that they have a rather poor track record with Human Rights, and not something *we* should be looking towards for guidance.

Guidance ? When did i say we needed to follow China's example ? You are again jumping to conclusions that sound "good to you". That is ok, but this is NOT what i intended when i said you need to look at China (which i doubt you actually did).

I wasnt and am not relying on any 3rd party to make my point, if I was I would allow someone else to be here posting the argument against Capital Punishment.

Yes you were, you use Gokul because it fits your way of thinking.

The Arguments I am using Against the use of capital punishment are as follows:

Capital Punishment does not work as a deterrent, people still do it [grave crimes] in there droves.

Nor does a life long sentence. Besides, that is NOT the intention of capital punishment.

Capital Punishment costs more than Life imprisonment according to some solid sources.

Impossible. How can it be that somebody is waiting for two years in deathrow costs more than someone that lives of tax payers money for the rest of his/her life ?

Capital Punishment does not work as a correctional tool, as you cannot correct a dead person.

Correct ? Who said anything about correcting ? One cannot "correct" a child rapist. They are not just a mathematical mistake, you know...

Capital Punishment is typically enforced by a judicial system that is in some instances not fit for purpose, and is in error regarding judging and convicting people.

Says who ? You ? Yes YOU. Well ,ok. I say you are wrong.

Capital Punishment is a tool for revenge, which is an unhealthy, knee jerk reactionary force that will end up causing more damage than good to society.

Not revenge, it is a tool for closure.

Revenge killings have no place in a modern Judicial System

That is true, because otherwise we start living like in Iran.

Now Marlon, that was my argument, it isn't childish, it is held by many people.

I never said your argument (ie oppose capital punishment) is childish. Read...Please...

In fact the country you live in, and are from, A democratic country of who the government has to bend to the will of the people scrapped it because its people didnt want it. All these people are not childish just because they don't agree with the Marlon fast-track execution solution for convicted fellons.

Oohh man...NOT AGAIN...You are just repeating the same stuff over and over again. I already told you that if you have nothing to say, don't say anything at all.

marlon

 

[Anttech]

But "your" article does NOT prove the fact that over 3000000000 people think like that [that = forgiving criminals]. I already said this. Sorry, but your conclusion is INCORRECT.

Marlon, are you serious?

Again, this thread isn't your own blog on "Why you are for capital punishment", There are > 3,000,000,000 people on earth, there are definitely people who want to forgive. I have seen it with my own eyes.

Just so you understand, that means: There are definately people within the 3,000,000,000 people I stated, that Do want to forgive. Its Doesnt say that 3,000,000,000 people want to forgive. You were asserting that nobody does, and everyone just gives into basic urges like rage and revenge.. Bit like Rape to be honest...

As for the rest, it just reads like a rant. You arent really giving any Arguments just 'your wrong, I am right'

The only Argument I got was regarding China, and the fact that The Communist Country of China wants to have Capital Punishment and thus the majority of the people in China do.. Which is weak at best considering the governmental style there

 

[kindaichi]

When i posted this thread at first place,i was actually hoping for some healthy debate.

 

[Anttech]

When i posted this thread at first place,i was actually hoping for some healthy debate.

Sorry, really, when I replied I wanted the same, and I apologies that it has been wrecked...

 

[marlon]

When i posted this thread at first place,i was actually hoping for some healthy debate.

Me too. Sorry for the poor quality but let's improve it.

My view is quite straightforeward : i think that captial punishment is a very good solution for convicted murderers and (child) rapists. I have lots of difficulties with the fact that such degenerate people are being kept alife at the expense of honest people's tax money. It is a lot cheaper to society if these people would be executed after being sentenced by a jury.

In reality, this punishment is ofcourse not an asset of our judicial process but that does not imply we can wonder as to whether it cannot improve our court rulings. Nobody benefits from overpopulated jails.


greets
marlon

 

[ptabor]

wow, I'm surprised this hasn't been locked yet.

Marlon, I would agree that child rapists are the lowest of the low, however extending the death penalty to that group would be a mistake.If the penalty for child murder and child rape are the same, the criminals are just going to murder their victims.

 

[SimplePie]

If we are going to keep capital punishment using whatever moral/social justification, then perhaps we should try to bring about some small positive outcome from the crimes.

For example, we could test medically unproven drugs on the offendors. Or inject them with a disease and learn about its initial symptoms, etc. I know this sounds very harsh to many people including myself, but, to me at least, a positive contribution to society can be acheived from such horrific acts.

 

[Apost8]

Wow. No offense there SimplePie, but that is one of the most horrific suggestions I've ever heard.

 

[Gokul43201]

It seems there's a lot of bickering that may simply be a result of people not expressing things clearly or completely. If we make a factual claim, let's try and support it with evidence. If we make a personal judgement, we explain the reasoning that led to that judgement. If we suggest cases/examples to look into, let's make it clear which specific point or claim such an example is intended to support and how it does so.

You lose those right [the right to life] when you kill or rape women, children, men,...

Seeing as there is no single country that I'm aware of (with the possible exception of China) that has this in their legal system, I'm guessing this must be your personal opinion (one that is likely shared by no country). So, being a personal opinion, you would be expected to justify it with some kind of logical argument, unless you wish to state that it is not based on logic.

The following statement may be seen as an argument supporting this claim:

The crux is to get rid off the ballast of the past. I do NOT want soe rapist living off my tax money. This is a FU**ING outrage. Why is this so difficult to see, huh ?

While this is not a complete argument, it is something of a justification. However, what makes "this so difficult to see" is why you are happy to see robbers, hooligans, arsonists, kidnappers and drug dealers living off your tax money...but not rapists.

What is the rationale behind that? In addition to the above, you have this follow-up:

One can very properly and easily define which crimes need to be followed by capital punishment.

Yet you provided none. Furthermore, if you are merely going to list the crimes that should be dealt with by CP, you are still not providing a reasoning for selecting those specific crimes. Without a reason, the choice becomes arbitrary, and would justify the use of CP for any crime.

Please give us your reasons for why certain crimes alone deserve a death penalty.

The following paragraph completely confounds me.

Tell me, if someone rapes your sister, would you not want to kill him. Indulge into your natural behaviour. There is NOTHING wrong with it.

Yet, there is something wrong and unnatural about killing someone because, say, he stole your life savings?

Haven't you just made an excuse for all killing here? Is it natural for a murderer to murder? You seem to suggest just that, especially when you say such things are "not a mathematical mistake" and can not be corrected.

If your argument here is that CP is justified because it is a natural behavior, then that opens a whole new can of worms. What on Earth is this "natural behavior"? And do you then legalize all acts that result from "natural behavior"?

The following exchange is quite extraordinary, though possibly due to misunderstanding.

Does this include [the death penalty for] statutory rape? How about reckless manslaughter?

YES ... YES

Do you know what those terms mean?

1. There is no legal consent with statutory rape. The law defines consent as something that can only be given by an adult. If you are below the age of consent, you can not, by definition, engage in consensual sex. You've just condemned every 16-year-old girl/boy that slept with their 15-year-old girlfriend/boyfriend to death!

2. Reckless (or criminally negligent or involuntary) manslaughter, by definition, is devoid of intent. This is probably not what you had in mind, since you subsequently stated that there needs to be an intent.

Furthermore, there's the whole issue of the inability to commute an erroneous sentence once a person has been executed. The reason for the existence of appeals and other procedures, is not to protect killers and rapists, but to reduce the likelihood of error.

THAT is what we should be solving : speeding up capital punishment for rapists and murderers. We should be looking into that in stead of waisting our time with these fake "left wing" semi-ethical thoughts as to whether capital punishment is just or not.

By eliminating appeals and executing the criminal quickly, you increase the margin of error. From other statements here, it seems you do not think this is a problem. curiously, others might notice a similarity between such a callousness and reckless manslaughter (a crime which you claim deserves the death penalty).

Such "superfluous luxury" wonderings are there to make us sleep well at night, yet just imagine for once that in the mean time YOUR child is being murdered.

You will want retaliation. Ofcourse you will want that because it is a pure natural reflex for which we should NOT be ashamed. This reaction is the first step towards easing the pain.

First you presume to know what I want (besides, you're wrong about that). Secondly you clearly are justifying the death penalty, saying it is a "natural" "retaliation".

Yet, you subsequently claim that capital punishment is...

Not revenge, it is a tool for closure.

Is there some difference now, between http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/thesaurus?book=Thesaurus&va=retaliation?

And then you say things where it's not clear what your intention is. for instance...

I repeat my previous answer and urge you too look for documented evidence on China's offical statement on capital punishment.

I could not find any reason for looking into China's "offical statement on capital punishment" based on your previous answer. What is the connection?

But subsequently, you say this:

Are you going to ask a clarification every time ? I urged you to look up China and i explained why. The conclusion of that search should prove the OPPOSITE of what you are saying (ie that the "majority of people" does not want capital punishment).

This at least makes it possible to discern the reasoning, but note that China does not make up a majority of the world's population. Furthermore, this quest is useless because:

1. China, being a Communist state, the official government policy tells you nothing about the opinions of the population. One can only make such a correlation in a democracy where the people elect representatives who share their opinions. Furthermore, the absense of a free press makes it impossibly hard to tell what the people's opinions are.

2. Despite the inability to find a clear relevance I tried googling for this "official statement on capital punishment". It seems that the Chinese Government does not publish this policy in an easy to access manner! Strange! What I did find, however, was that China employs the death penalty for tax evasion!

Besides, if you want to support a claim with a specific example, the burden is upon you to provide a link to this specific example, not send others on a wild goose chase around the internet.

Impossible. How can it be that somebody is waiting for two years in deathrow costs more than someone that lives of tax payers money for the rest of his/her life ?

I don't know if the emphasis here is meant to be one the words "two years" (i.e., this is your hypothetical situation, not reality). But if not, there's tons of evidence that the death penalty is at least as expensive as a life term (without the possibility of parole).
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108#financial%20facts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Death_Penalty_World_Map.png

 

[SimplePie]

Wow. No offense there SimplePie, but that is one of the most horrific suggestions I've ever heard.

None taken. I would like to make clear my assumption that one will not see social benefits to the same degree by simply putting a criminal to sleep (or "frying", etc) as one would by advancing pharmacology at the cost of harming an individual with no burdens of human consciousness. Of course, if anyone does not agree with my assumption, I'd like to learn why.

 

[Evo]

Threads on this topic never go anywhere. We've pretty much said all there is to say at this point. Some people approve, some don't and there will never be 100% agreement.

Thread is closed.

 

[SimplePie]

Now we'll never know if people accept my assumption!

 

[Evo]

Now we'll never know if people accept my assumption!

Some will agree and some will disagree.

Actually prisoners are allowed to volunteer in medical studies.