Car/truck cooling vs. engine power value chart/table?

[DynV]

TL;DR Summary

I'm just curious of the comparison of
* cheaper engine (VS other engines) with more expensive cooling (VS other cooling) and
* more expensive engine (VS other engines) with cheaper cooling (VS other cooling).

For peak quality/price ratio of--widely available--cars, or trucks, and their parts, could you make either a rough chart or table with a dozen entries (or more) of a comparison of the value of engine and cooling. AFAIK peak quality/price ratio is a highway-capable 3-4 years old used cars or truck (I put highway-capable as sometimes there's car or trucks that were so damaged that even though they're repaired they're not rated to go on highway anymore).

Anything goes as long as it's--widely available--, ie mixing a normally available incompatible engine and transmission using a kit. I'd like to see a rough estimate comparison of the value of an engine VS cooling having similar total price. I don't need to do this to answer a school question nor plan to build a car. I'm just curious of the comparison of
* cheaper engine (VS other engines) with more expensive cooling (VS other cooling) and
* more expensive engine (VS other engines) with cheaper cooling (VS other cooling).

Looking forward what users post here

 

[Baluncore]

Internal combustion engines ?

Useful energy passes to the gearbox. There is some noise produced. Most waste heat escapes through either the liquid cooling radiator or the exhaust. If a minority of the energy is used mechanically, an increase in efficiency of the engine by 1% will make a smaller % reduction in waste heat.

To answer this question requires knowing the energy flows and efficiency of the different engines in question. Maybe that should be settled first, so this thread becomes an analysis discussion rather than an argument over the numbers.

 

[DynV]

Isn't there a way to compare different car types, sub-compacts VS sub-compacts, minivans VS minivans?

Internal combustion engines ?

Yes.

an increase in efficiency of the engine by 1% will make a smaller % reduction in waste heat.

Does that mean that beyond a certain point, it's definitively better to spend more on engine (VS average engine price, thus cooling < average cooling price) ?

 

[Baluncore]

Does that mean that beyond a certain point, it's definitively better to spend more on engine (VS average engine price, thus cooling < average cooling price) ?

There may be a tipping point, but we need agreed stable data to analyse, to see if that point exists within the range of reality.

 

[DynV]

we need agreed stable data to analyse, to see if that point exists within the range of reality.

What about the most sold Japanese, German & American car of the category?

Edit: Or better yet, instead of most sold: best reselling value (compared to MSRP).

 

[Baluncore]

Data on different models needs to be consistent across operating conditions.
The analysis can only be as good as the data platform.
We have no agreed data.

 

[DynV]

Pick anything in sub-compact or compact?

Edit: Or any affordable car with great reselling value.

 

[Baluncore]

This is your thread. Follow your nose.

 

[DynV]

Pick any of https://www.statista.com/statistics/461496/key-compact-car-models-sold-in-the-united-states/ except the last, which has almost no bar.

 

[jack action]

What you want to know is really not clear. Here is how I understand it (which is probably wrong):

There are different types of internal combustion engines:

• single-cylinder
• inline 4-cylinder
• V-8
• boxer
• Wankel
• ...

There are different cooling methods:

• air-cooled
• small aluminum radiator liquid-cooled
• big copper radiator liquid-cooled
• ...

All of these have different prices. To compare them, what are the criteria? Do they need to have the same:

• fuel consumption
• power output
• thermal efficiency
• longevity
• weight
• volume
• all of the above

I think this is what @Baluncore wants to know as well when talking about "agreed data".

 

[DynV]

Not only I don't know what they are but they may very well change year-to-year (in a specific model). I also mentioned that swapping was an option as long as a kit was widely-available, and I made no mention of the following but also if an available swapping method is widely used (having to ship you car > 1,000 miles away is prohibitive).

I gave a page with multiple models, s/he's free to pick one of them and if necessary a year if even more precision is needed a specific set of options.

This is the gist of what I'm trying to figure out: I have a compact car missing engine & cooling, with a specific budget (s/he can come up with it), what are the best options to maintain (ie for 1 hr) high speed?

 

[russ_watters]

I gave a page with multiple models, s/he's free to pick one of them and if necessary a year if even more precision is needed a specific set of options.

On PF we help people learn to do their work for themselves, we are not a service where people are assigned tasks to complete by posters. So we won't be doing this work for you.

This may be a task that a chat-bot could complete, but I suspect you'll have the same garbage in = garbage out problem people are telling you about. Although I guess if you truly don't care about the answer you get a chat-bot is probably perfect for that.

 

[DynV]

So we won't be doing this work for you.

Work?!

I don't need to do this to answer a school question nor plan to build a car. I'm just curious [...]

Edit: Also, I don't know if it's customary but when I make a help request I thank people ahead of time, there was no such thing in the OP.

 

[russ_watters]

Work?!

Edit: Also, I don't know if it's customary but when I make a help request I thank people ahead of time, there was no such thing in the OP.

Whether it is actual homework or not doesn't have any impact on the policy. And yes, the way you've worded/approached this is weird for a 'do this task for me' type request. Anyway, that's all. You can go ahead and make your choices and start assembling the data and we will help along the way.

 

[jack action]

This is the gist of what I'm trying to figure out: I have a compact car missing engine & cooling, with a specific budget (s/he can come up with it), what are the best options to maintain (ie for 1 hr) high speed?

Your best option is to put back the original engine & cooling system as it was intended by the manufacturer.

Whatever economy you could get from putting in another engine or cooling system is rarely an improvement unless you intend to use the vehicle for another purpose than it was designed for AND you really know what you are doing.

Also, instead of using vague terms such as "maintain a [certain] compact car at high speed for an hour", it would be more useful to state what are your goals and your restrictions clearly.

• What is the compact car model?
• What speed?
• Why do you need it only for an hour? One hour intermittently or one hour as a total lifetime?

also if an available swapping method is widely used (having to ship you car > 1,000 miles away is prohibitive).

What is a "swapping method" and why would you need to ship your car 1000 miles away to put an engine and cooling system in it?

We don't read minds. What is your actual project or idea?

 

[DynV]

• What is the compact car model?
• What speed?
• Why do you need it only for an hour? One hour intermittently or one hour as a total lifetime?

Pick any of https://www.statista.com/statistics/461496/key-compact-car-models-sold-in-the-united-states/ except the last, which has almost no bar.

Choose, if you like #1 go for it, maybe you like

Random Integer Generator​

Here are your random numbers:

8

Timestamp: 2023-06-21 17:16:47 UTC

instead?

For speed, maybe 95% of the maximum?

What is your actual project or idea?

I saw a thumbnail of a cheap police van, the kind of van a plumber would use, with a cop in the middle of the highway, and I thought the suspect was nice as s/he'd probably could have outrun the cop, but then a crazy idea came to mind: what if the van, which almost certainly isn't equipped that way, had a very large (front) radiator linked to side radiators and could go at almost maximum speed for a prolonged time and slowly catch up to the suspect who's cooling would slowly become insufficient.

 

[Nugatory]

what if the van, which almost certainly isn't equipped that way, had a very large (front) radiator linked to side radiators and could go at almost maximum speed for a prolonged time and slowly catch up to the suspect who's cooling would slowly become insufficient.

Any properly maintained modern car can be operated at top speed indefinitely while maintaining a stable temperature, so no opportunity here. We aren’t going to catch the suspect this way unless they’ve been skimping on maintenance and ignoring their owner’s manual

 

[berkeman]

what if the van, which almost certainly isn't equipped that way, had a very large (front) radiator linked to side radiators and could go at almost maximum speed for a prolonged time and slowly catch up to the suspect who's cooling would slowly become insufficient.

Internal combustion engine vehicles do not overheat from running at high speed; the cooling airflow is sufficient to cool the engine. The harder regime for cooling systems is running under load at low speeds, like on a long climb up a steep grade. That's why vehicles equipped for towing heavy trailers have "trailer packages" that include larger radiators and electric fans with larger blades behind the radiators...

 

[PeterDonis]

the suspect who's cooling would slowly become insufficient

As others have pointed out, this won't happen.

When I worked as an engineer at GM we routinely tested this by running instrumented vehicles on a dyno at 70 mph, wide open throttle. The vehicle was required to reach stable, within specification operating points for all temperatures.

 

[PeterDonis]

I have a compact car missing engine & cooling, with a specific budget (s/he can come up with it), what are the best options to maintain (ie for 1 hr) high speed?

This:

Your best option is to put back the original engine & cooling system as it was intended by the manufacturer.

The engineers working for the manufacturer who designed the engine and cooling system had far more relevant information than you are going to be able to find out. You are not going to be able to do a better job than they did.

 

[berkeman]

we routinely tested this by running instrumented vehicles on a dyno at 70 mph, wide open throttle.

Wow. Just to clarify, you mean running on a dyno platform with 70mph air forced through the radiator? Or did you somehow tow the whole platform across the desert in Nevada at 70mph?

 

[DynV]

somehow tow the whole platform across the desert in Nevada at 70mph?

Bicycles

Treadmill Bike lets you go for a jog without getting your shoes dirty

The Treadmill Bike is for people who love the sensation of jogging outdoors but don't want to get their shoes dirty.

 

[PeterDonis]

Wow. Just to clarify, you mean running on a dyno platform with 70mph air forced through the radiator? Or did you somehow tow the whole platform across the desert in Nevada at 70mph?

Running in a wind tunnel with the wind speed matching the dyno speed.

We also had a version of the same test we ran at the Desert Proving Ground (GM has long since sold that property) with towable trailers that could provide variable resistance. You would tow the trailer around the big circle track at 70 mph and dial up the resistance until the throttle was wide open.

 

[berkeman]

Sounds like fun! PF Road Trip and Tour!

 

[PeterDonis]

Sounds like fun! PF Road Trip and Tour!

Unfortunately, as I said, the property was sold years ago. I don't even think the big test track is there any more.

 

[Tom.G]

The Mesa, Arizona site was closed in 2009 and replaced with a new site in Yuma, Arizona. I lived near Mesa while it was operational and never knew it was there!

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gm+proving+grounds+mesa+az

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_proving_grounds

Cheers,
Tom

 

[gmax137]

When I worked as an engineer at GM we routinely tested this by running instrumented vehicles on a dyno at 70 mph, wide open throttle. The vehicle was required to reach stable, within specification operating points for all temperatures.

Here's another data point: In my mis-spent youth I witnessed a test to destruction, running a 1970's era Chrysler V-8 at wide open throttle with no load (ie, trans in "park"), the only cooling air was the fan sucking through the radiator. Surprisingly the engine held together for over 45 screaming minutes. Eventually it got so hot under the hood that a radiator hose failed; but even with no coolant the poor engine struggled on for another 5 or 10 minutes. A cruel fate for a rusty junker headed to the scrapyard.