Cinco de Mayo: Celebrating a Mexican Victory & US Unity

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In summary: The USA helped the Mexicans later defeat the French after the French had come and obliterated the Mexican army. I don't think it's proper that a school bans wearing your nations flag to school on a national holiday just because some other people may not like it.
  • #36
Jack21222 said:
How about those that find all flags equally offensive? Where should we go?
Go where you will, there is no place that wants you.
 
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  • #37
Jimmy Snyder said:
Go where you will, there is no place that wants you.

Actually, I find the United States quite accommodating to my beliefs, values, and ethics. Besides, even if the US was full of Jimmy Snyders and wanted to kick me out, I guarantee there are dozens of countries in the world that would be happy to have me.

But, we've gone far off topic, and you seem to have just gone off on personal attacks, so I don't see a point in responding further.
 
  • #38
Jack21222 said:
How about those that find all flags equally offensive? Where should we go?

I'm just going to have to ask you to give me a reasonable and logical reason why you find all flags to be offensive.
 
  • #39
zomgwtf said:
I'm just going to have to ask you to give me a reasonable and logical reason why you find all flags to be offensive.

They symbolize artificial tribal divisions in the human species, and I find arbitrary, artificial divisions between humans offensive.
 
  • #40
Students were with in their rights, principal was wrong as his school board later informed him.
 
  • #41
Jack21222 said:
They symbolize artificial tribal divisions in the human species, and I find arbitrary, artificial divisions between humans offensive.

That is not a reason why you find it offensive. It just explains what you find offensive offensive, keep going now... explain your statement.
 
  • #42
zomgwtf said:
That is not a reason why you find it offensive. It just explains what you find offensive offensive, keep going now... explain your statement.

I don't understand the difference between "giving a reason" and "explaining." You're confusing me.
 
  • #43
Jack21222 said:
I don't understand the difference between "giving a reason" and "explaining." You're confusing me.

You answered the what, now answer the why. I really don't think you have a legit reason to find offensive all flags.
 
  • #44
I just gave you the reason. I seriously don't know how to make it any clearer.
 
  • #45
Maybe zomg wants you to explain why you find arbitrary divisions offensive.
 
  • #46
Jack21222 said:
They symbolize artificial tribal divisions in the human species, and I find arbitrary, artificial divisions between humans offensive.
Humans have found teamwork and division of labor to be extremely advantageous to getting through life. No individual has to grow/hunt their own food, build their own house, make their own clothes, generate their own electricity, **and** fend off invaders and predators. The whole process has evolved into the communities, cities, and nations that exist today. And it is still evolving.

You can find the result offensive, but I argue the alternative is that you should do all those things I listed above (and more) yourself, and see how far you get in life.

Just my 2 cents.
 
  • #47
Jack21222 said:
How about those that find all flags equally offensive? Where should we go?

Somalia? I don't know...pick a place that doesn't have a government and enjoy? Maybe an island...or a boat?
 
  • #48
Redbelly98 said:
Humans have found teamwork and division of labor to be extremely advantageous to getting through life. No individual has to grow/hunt their own food, build their own house, make their own clothes, generate their own electricity, **and** fend off invaders and predators. The whole process has evolved into the communities, cities, and nations that exist today. And it is still evolving.

You can find the result offensive, but I argue the alternative is that you should do all those things I listed above (and more) yourself, and see how far you get in life.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't think division of labor has much to do with nationalism. In fact, this is the first time I've ever heard that argument.

Somalia? I don't know...pick a place that doesn't have a government and enjoy? Maybe an island...or a boat?

You can't have a government without nationalism? News to me.

Maybe zomg wants you to explain why you find arbitrary divisions offensive.

How many hundreds of millions of humans have had their lives ended prematurely due to those divisions?
 
  • #50
skeptic2 said:
Could you please elaborate on your reasoning? What should a person do if he is offended by the Confederate flag for instance?

Perhaps the person ought question why it is that they are offended by a piece of cloth.
 
  • #51
TheStatutoryApe said:
Perhaps the person ought question why it is that they are offended by a piece of cloth.

Or perhaps why other people are offended by people who are offended by a piece of cloth.
 
  • #52
skeptic2 said:
Or perhaps why other people are offended by people who are offended by a piece of cloth.

The issue is not offense taken but restrictions placed upon persons due to offense. I could care less if you are offended by what I say; I do, however, care if you would seek to punish me for saying it.
 
  • #53
A friend invited me to a new Facebook page. It's the "If the American Flag offends you, I'll be happy to help you pack!" page.
 
  • #55
drankin said:
A friend invited me to a new Facebook page. It's the "If the American Flag offends you, I'll be happy to help you pack!" page.

These sentiments seem sort of silly. As a previous poster pointed out, the habitable world is covered by nation-states. Since it's not flags per ce, but rather, the notion of nationalism that people don't care for, the extensions of the argument is that people shouldn't have the right to live anywhere unless they agree with the concept. People constantly live under governments and societies where they do not share all values. The sentiment that leads people to say, "leave" is the very essence of the deep routed collectivist tribal mentality that people are objecting to. It more or less boils down to, you are either with or against us. It is similar to the view that opposition to a war implies sympathies for the oppossing side. Tribal instincts are so powerfully instinctually rooted that they often blind critical thinking, and create these destructive dichotomies.
From a moral point of view, I absolutely refuse to believe that a certain human being has more value, or deserves different basic rights based soley on where they were born or where they currently live.
 
  • #56
Galteeth said:
These sentiments seem sort of silly. As a previous poster pointed out, the habitable world is covered by nation-states. Since it's not flags per ce, but rather, the notion of nationalism that people don't care for, the extensions of the argument is that people shouldn't have the right to live anywhere unless they agree with the concept. People constantly live under governments and societies where they do not share all values. The sentiment that leads people to say, "leave" is the very essence of the deep routed collectivist tribal mentality that people are objecting to. It more or less boils down to, you are either with or against us. It is similar to the view that opposition to a war implies sympathies for the oppossing side. Tribal instincts are so powerfully instinctually rooted that they often blind critical thinking, and create these destructive dichotomies.
From a moral point of view, I absolutely refuse to believe that a certain human being has more value, or deserves different basic rights based soley on where they were born or where they currently live.

I don't think anything you've stated has anything to do with being proud or happy about your country.

People not agreeing with the government is vastly different than people being offended by the flag of the country. They are not similar in anyway, I can definitely be unhappy or pissed off about my government but I still love Canada, I'm happy I was born here over the majority of the rest of the world and I would gladly kick anyone out of my country who gets offended by the Canadian flag. The flag represents the nation as a whole, all it's ideologies, it's people everything. And if you don't like that then why are you living here? To leach off of everything you don't like or to sit around and complain about how much you don't like it? Do yourself a favour and leave, I would definitely help you pack your bags... even buy you a plane ticket.

Your also wrong about the basic rights of humans. Go ask someone in Afghanistan or North Korea what their fundamental rights are like. It definitely changes from nation to nation. Some nations believe all people are free and have equal rights... some nations believe if you are of a different belief system you deserve to die etc. etc.. I support the ones that protect freedoms and rights of all people equally and that is why I am a PROUD CANADIAN because that's exactly what Canada stands for. If you don't like Canada then f*&k you if you live in Canada but you don't like the idea of Canada then I agree completely that you should just leave. (as i stated earlier in this post.)
 
  • #57
Galteeth said:
These sentiments seem sort of silly. As a previous poster pointed out, the habitable world is covered by nation-states. Since it's not flags per ce, but rather, the notion of nationalism that people don't care for, the extensions of the argument is that people shouldn't have the right to live anywhere unless they agree with the concept. People constantly live under governments and societies where they do not share all values. The sentiment that leads people to say, "leave" is the very essence of the deep routed collectivist tribal mentality that people are objecting to. It more or less boils down to, you are either with or against us. It is similar to the view that opposition to a war implies sympathies for the oppossing side. Tribal instincts are so powerfully instinctually rooted that they often blind critical thinking, and create these destructive dichotomies.
From a moral point of view, I absolutely refuse to believe that a certain human being has more value, or deserves different basic rights based soley on where they were born or where they currently live.

Hey, I'd help you pack. Used to be professional mover :)
 
  • #58
zomgwtf said:
Your also wrong about the basic rights of humans. Go ask someone in Afghanistan or North Korea what their fundamental rights are like. It definitely changes from nation to nation. Some nations believe all people are free and have equal rights... some nations believe if you are of a different belief system you deserve to die etc. etc.. I support the ones that protect freedoms and rights of all people equally and that is why I am a PROUD CANADIAN because that's exactly what Canada stands for. If you don't like Canada then f*&k you if you live in Canada but you don't like the idea of Canada then I agree completely that you should just leave. (as i stated earlier in this post.)

Note "deserves" versus "currently have".
 
  • #59
Galteeth said:
These sentiments seem sort of silly. As a previous poster pointed out, the habitable world is covered by nation-states. Since it's not flags per ce, but rather, the notion of nationalism that people don't care for, the extensions of the argument is that people shouldn't have the right to live anywhere unless they agree with the concept. People constantly live under governments and societies where they do not share all values. The sentiment that leads people to say, "leave" is the very essence of the deep routed collectivist tribal mentality that people are objecting to. It more or less boils down to, you are either with or against us. It is similar to the view that opposition to a war implies sympathies for the oppossing side. Tribal instincts are so powerfully instinctually rooted that they often blind critical thinking, and create these destructive dichotomies.
From a moral point of view, I absolutely refuse to believe that a certain human being has more value, or deserves different basic rights based soley on where they were born or where they currently live.

I think this thread is a little off course. The US has a national flag. It is our national symbol and denotes a land of freedom and opportunity.

Anyone who chooses to live in the US is expected to "respect our colors". When you become an American, the US flag becomes YOUR flag.

If the problem in the school was gang related, then the stort should have been about out of control gangs disrupting the schools.
 
  • #60
Galteeth said:
Note "deserves" versus "currently have".

Note 'some nations believe' add in the words 'you' and 'deserve'. Some nations believe you deserve... blah blah blah. Beliefs on fundamental rights changes from nation to nation regardless of whatever belief you hold. Flags represent an entire nation, everything about it, including those beliefs. I happen to come from a nation which holds the same 'i believe people deserve equal rights etc.' and that is why I respect that flag and I am very proud of the ideas behind that flag.

This new post of yours adds nothing to your position. The fact of the matter is that neither you nor Jack can give a legitimate reason to find flags offensive.
 
  • #61
zomgwtf said:
...Flags represent an entire nation, everything about it,
...

This is exactly what I mean. It's a total fiction to prentend some group or territory has some spotless history or moral superiority. It seems that such thinking "WE are better then YOU" is exactly what I find offensive. I can't spell it out much more clearly.
 
  • #62
I think in this case its less about current national pride and more about ancestral pride since it was on a day honoring Mexican heritage and these students were opposing that with their own. Doing so on that specific day then to Oppose them basically expressed their pride in the CONFLICT between the two heritages rather than any individual national pride.
There IS a difference, albeit a small one, and it is this difference which I believe allowed the principal the authority and freedom to deem it possible to incite violence.
 
  • #63
Galteeth said:
This is exactly what I mean. It's a total fiction to prentend some group or territory has some spotless history or moral superiority. It seems that such thinking "WE are better then YOU" is exactly what I find offensive. I can't spell it out much more clearly.
You seem to be just grasping for things now.

No one said anything about moral superiority. I wrote out a long post addressing this flaw in your post in relation to flags but I hit the F5 button and lost everything, do not feel like typing it all out.

In short though it said that morals are subjective, not objective. I think most people understand this so if a person thinks 'my nation is better than yours based on morals' then they are only saying 'I believe my nation is better because...' it has no objective meaning... This happens with EVERYTHING about beliefs, 100% of the population will never agree on all things. This will naturally lead to 'I think that this idea is better than yours,' it's only human.

Anyway this has nothing to do with finding flags offensive. If you find your countries flag offensive because it symbolizes freedom or other moral standards etc. then I still do not see why you decide to reside in the country. We do not live in a utopian state, we never will, and people will always have diverse beliefs, there is nothing offensive about it. Actually it makes me love my nations flag even more because we are tolerant of all the diverse beliefs. In fact, it's how our government works.

However I have to call you out as a hypocrit. It would appear to me that you are placing your OWN beliefs higher than all those around you by finding flags offensive... What you are basically your saying 'I find it offensive that people think their ideas are better than others' Which is the same as saying 'I think this idea I have is better.'
 
  • #64
zomgwtf said:
You seem to be just grasping for things now.


Anyway this has nothing to do with finding flags offensive. If you find your countries flag offensive because it symbolizes freedom or other moral standards etc. then I still do not see why you decide to reside in the country. '
That's a strawman and you know it.

zomgwtf said:
However I have to call you out as a hypocrit. It would appear to me that you are placing your OWN beliefs higher than all those around you by finding flags offensive... What you are basically your saying 'I find it offensive that people think their ideas are better than others' Which is the same as saying 'I think this idea I have is better.'
Flags, as symbols of nationalism, are also symbols of nation states. In other words, they are largely military symbols. The notion of "Us" and "them" is not necessarily offensive, but its extension to violence is. As is apparently the case in this school, where the kids are apparently ready to fight over whose colors they fly. Remember, I am not supporting the ban.
Honestly, I can't be sure, but I think you understand exactly what I mean, but are mischaracterizing it out of a strong emotional reaction to the content of the debate.
 

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