Confusion about light exerting a force

[pigtwo]

Hello everyone!

I've been thinking about this for a little while and haven't been able to come up with a satisfying answer yet, so I'm asking you guys.

I've heard about things like solar sails, where the light from the sun would be used to push something to somewhere. I also heard something where someone calculated the weight that light from the sun has on an area the size of LA(it was something like 9 lbs). Seeing how light is massless, I don't see how this is possible.

I know the sun ejects actual non-massless(massful?) particles that I guess you could say accounts for this but I don't think this is what they are talking about.

The only thing I could think of that could cause this is that light has some amount of energy and given E = mc^2, we could replace all the mass terms with terms of energy. So we would take

$F = ma$
and turn it into
$F = \frac{E}{c^2} a$

Is this correct? For some reason it feels like I'm missing something.

Also, just so you know, I'm an engineering undergrad so I don't know a ton of physics. I've only taken Physics I and II. So mechanics and basic electromagnetics.

Another mini-semi related question:
I've also heard that something with more energy actually weighs more than the same thing with less energy. So a cup of water at 100 degrees would weigh more than the identical cup at 1 degree.

Which I guess makes sense because of E = mc^2. But I don't see why it would actually gain mass. To me E = mc^2 is just saying that energy and matter are two forms of the same thing essentially, but not that if one increases the other also increases.

So in this case I could see how if you somehow converted the thermal energy to mass, it would then clearly weigh more. But until then, it would weigh the same but have more thermal energy.

I hope that made sense.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Start with the fact that light carries momentum. That will get you where you are going.

 

[Bobbywhy]

"I know the sun ejects actual non-massless(massful?) particles that I guess you could say accounts for this but I don't think this is what they are talking about."

True, the sun ocassionally emits gasses and particles called Coronal Mass Ejections. You are correct; these have nothing to do with "solar sails".

Cheers,
Bobbywhy

 

[mrspeedybob]

...To me E = mc^2 is just saying that energy and matter are two forms of the same thing essentially...

Right there you answered both of your own questions. Mass and energy are already the same thing. You don't have to convert one to the other. When you weigh something you are measuring its energy content.

Photons are said to be massless but that is not actually the case. What is meant by that is that they have no mass when at rest. However, they can never be at rest. Photons, by definition, travel at the speed of light so saying that the rest mass of a photon is pretty nonsensical.

 

[sardar]

Hi there! I can provide some clarification on the concept of light exerting force.

Firstly, it is important to understand that light does indeed have energy, even though it is massless. This is due to its dual nature as both a particle and a wave. The energy of a photon (a particle of light) is given by its frequency, according to the equation E=hf, where h is Planck's constant and f is the frequency of the light. So, in the case of solar sails, the photons from the sun are transferring their energy to the sail, causing it to move.

Secondly, your equation for force, F=ma, can be modified to account for the force exerted by light. As you mentioned, we can use the equation E=mc^2 to relate energy and mass. Therefore, the equation for force exerted by light would be F= \frac{E}{c^2} a. This is known as the radiation pressure force.

As for your question about energy and mass, it is true that an increase in energy can lead to an increase in mass, according to Einstein's famous equation. This is because energy and mass are interchangeable, as seen in nuclear reactions where a small amount of mass is converted to a large amount of energy. In the case of a cup of water, the increase in thermal energy does lead to a very small increase in mass, but it is not measurable with our current technology.

I hope this helps to clarify the concept of light exerting force and the relationship between energy and mass. Keep asking questions and exploring the world of science!