Constant pressure process (piston) on gas violates Newtons 2nd law?

In summary: Newton's Third Law is invoked in the argument that the FBD at the two points is the same--the net force on the piston is zero.
  • #1
questionmonkey123
3
0
Screen Shot 2021-10-01 at 7.18.34 PM.png


I often see this set up in thermodynamic problems and need clarification on how Newton's Laws are involved for the piston:

Gas inside a piston cylinder (1) is heated expanding the gas and raising the piston (initially at rest) to a height (2) in a constant pressure quasi-equilibrium process. At (2) the piston is also at rest, thus the FBD at (1) and (2) are the same.

My understanding: In order for piston to travel to any height from initial rest, there is acceleration involved thus a net force. The only forces on the piston are the ones shown (for any point in the process), and the gas pressure is constant throughout the process so there is never a net force to move the piston up from rest.
How is this type of problem justified in terms of Newton's laws? What assumptions am I overlooking?
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
  • #2
When you think of NOT force BUT work or energy, gas inside the cylinder did work of ##p_1 Ah##.
Constant pressure quasi-equilibrium process is not constant pressure equilibrium.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes sophiecentaur
  • #3
anuttarasammyak said:
When you think of NOT force BUT work or energy, gas inside the cylinder did work of ##p_1 Ah##.
But how does this clarify acceleration with no net force? I already know how to calculate work.
 
  • #4
When you heat gas its pressure goes up slightly ##\triangle p## which make force imbalance and the piston moves up. By gas inflation its pressure goes down back to ##p_1## and the piston oscillates and ceases oscillating in a long time transferring all kinetic energy to potential energy and stops at ##\triangle h## up for there is no loss of energy or heat generation for a reversible process. Such an infinitesimal process is repeated infinite times for the final piston height.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Lnewqban
  • #5
At state 1:
$$\left(P_1 - P_0\right)A = mg$$
After heating, the pressure increases by ##\Delta P##:
$$\left(\left(P_1 + \Delta P\right) - P_0\right)A = m(g + a)$$
And the acceleration ##a## depends on ##\Delta P##.

But as soon as the piston moves, the pressure decreases because the volume increases. Eventually, ##\left(P_1 + \Delta P\right)## will go back to ##P_1## and ##a## will go back to zero. The only difference is that the volume and temperature have increased.
 
  • #6
What happens in cases of abrupt increase of internal pressure?

 
  • #7
questionmonkey123 said:
The only forces on the piston are the ones shown (for any point in the process), and the gas pressure is constant throughout the process so there is never a net force to move the piston up from rest.
How is this type of problem justified in terms of Newton's laws? What assumptions am I overlooking?
Assuming a frictionless system, the piston still has inertia and resists moving when the gas is first heated. Thus the gas is initially at a higher pressure than it will be later, as jack action explained in post #5.
 
  • #8
The simple answer here is that the given example is a simplified abstraction of what would actually occur in such a situation. Of course in the real world you would need some initial (and final) acceleration and this whole process is transient, but the purposes of problems like this are perfectly well-served by neglecting those details.
 
  • Like
Likes Drakkith

1. How does a constant pressure process on gas violate Newton's 2nd law?

A constant pressure process on gas violates Newton's 2nd law because it assumes that the pressure on the gas remains constant, while in reality, the pressure changes as the volume of the gas changes. This violates the law which states that the force applied on an object is directly proportional to its mass and acceleration, and in this case, the pressure (force) is not directly proportional to the volume (acceleration).

2. Can you provide an example of a constant pressure process on gas violating Newton's 2nd law?

One example of a constant pressure process on gas violating Newton's 2nd law is the expansion of a gas in a piston. As the gas expands, the pressure decreases, but according to Newton's 2nd law, the force should also decrease proportionally. However, in a constant pressure process, the force remains constant, thus violating the law.

3. How does the ideal gas law relate to the violation of Newton's 2nd law in a constant pressure process?

The ideal gas law, which states that the pressure of a gas is inversely proportional to its volume at a constant temperature, is often used to calculate the pressure in a constant pressure process on gas. However, this law does not take into account the changing pressure and volume, thus leading to a violation of Newton's 2nd law.

4. Is it possible for a constant pressure process on gas to not violate Newton's 2nd law?

No, it is not possible for a constant pressure process on gas to not violate Newton's 2nd law. This is because the pressure and volume of the gas are changing, and according to the law, the force should also change proportionally. In a constant pressure process, the force remains constant, thus violating the law.

5. How does this violation of Newton's 2nd law affect the accuracy of scientific experiments?

The violation of Newton's 2nd law in a constant pressure process on gas can significantly affect the accuracy of scientific experiments, especially in fields such as thermodynamics and fluid mechanics. This is because the calculations and predictions made using the ideal gas law may not accurately reflect the behavior of real gases, leading to errors in the results of experiments.

Similar threads

  • Mechanical Engineering
Replies
8
Views
1K
Replies
8
Views
1K
Replies
5
Views
583
Replies
4
Views
831
  • Mechanical Engineering
Replies
3
Views
960
Replies
22
Views
2K
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
8
Views
748
Replies
56
Views
3K
Replies
5
Views
1K
Replies
3
Views
1K
Back
Top