In summary, the conversation discusses a derivation of the rocket equation and highlights a step that is confusing. The speaker questions the validity of treating the mass of a closed system as something that can vary. They also mention that the velocity is not constant and question why the force from a fluid equation still works in this scenario. They ask for clarification on this concept.
  • #1
lowea001
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Based on my current understanding of the problem I do not see this following derivation as valid, although this is what was given in my course notes. Although this particular example is from an undergraduate physics course this is not a homework problem: I'm confused about the underlying concept. I will highlight below the specific step I do not understand. Here is the given derivation of the rocket equation:

A rocket of mass [itex]M_{0}[/itex] (excluding fuel) originally has fuel of mass [itex]m_{0}[/itex] which is being ejected at constant velocity [itex]u[/itex] downward, relative to the rocket at a constant rate [itex]\frac{dm}{dt}[/itex]. By conservation of momentum, the rocket acquires a velocity [itex]v[/itex] upward. Applying momentum conservation in the frame of an observer we have:
[tex]\frac{d(M(t)v)}{dt} = M(t)\frac{dv}{dt} + v\frac{dM(t)}{dt} = (v - u) \frac{dm}{dt}[/tex] ***the expression after the last equals sign is what I do not get. ***
Since [itex]dM=dm[/itex] we have:
[tex]M(t)\frac{dv}{dt} = -\frac{dM(t)}{dt}u[/tex]
which is the rocket equation.
Okay, so most of that makes sense (kind of), but the relative velocity part seems kind of questionable (or hand-wavy at the very least) since the entire premise behind being able to treat a fluid's change in momentum being only due to its rate of change of mass is that the velocity is constant, which it is clearly not in the case of v - u. In other words, why does the force from a fluid equation [itex]F = v\frac{dm}{dt}[/itex] still work if v is not constant, but changing with time? Shouldn't the right hand side of the line in question read [itex]\frac{dm(v-u)}{dt} = \frac{dm}{dt}v + \frac{dv}{dt}m - \frac{dm}{dt}u[/itex] since v isn't constant? Sorry, I tried to make this as succinct as possible. If someone could point me in the general direction and help me understand how I am misunderstanding this idea I would be very grateful. Thank you.
 
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The first step, d(mv)/dt= mdv/dt+vdm/dt, is problematic. In effect, it treats the mass m(t) of a closed system as something that can vary. This is of course nonsense. Ending up with the right rocket equation appears to be via some sleight of hand, and I think it is that part that had you foxed.
 
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1. What is the purpose of deriving the rocket equation using relative velocity?

The derivation of the rocket equation using relative velocity allows us to understand the relationship between the mass of a rocket and its velocity, and how this affects its motion in space. This equation is essential for calculating the necessary fuel and thrust for a rocket to reach a desired velocity.

2. How is relative velocity defined in the context of the rocket equation?

Relative velocity, in the context of the rocket equation, refers to the change in velocity of the rocket relative to its initial velocity. It takes into account the mass of the rocket and the amount of fuel burned to determine the final velocity.

3. Can the rocket equation using relative velocity be applied to all types of rockets?

Yes, the rocket equation using relative velocity is a universal equation that can be applied to all types of rockets, regardless of their design or propulsion system. It is a fundamental principle in rocket science and is used in the design and operation of all rockets.

4. How does the rocket equation using relative velocity account for the mass of the rocket?

The rocket equation using relative velocity takes into account the mass of the rocket by including the rocket's initial mass and the mass of the fuel burned during flight. This equation shows that as the rocket burns fuel, its mass decreases, and this affects its velocity according to the principle of conservation of momentum.

5. Are there any limitations to the rocket equation using relative velocity?

One limitation of the rocket equation using relative velocity is that it assumes a constant exhaust velocity for the fuel. In reality, the exhaust velocity may vary depending on external factors such as air resistance. Additionally, this equation does not take into account the effects of gravity, which can also impact the motion of a rocket in space.

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