Disclosure Project by Steven M. Greer: Reliability?

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In summary, the Disclosure Project by Steven M. Greer aims to expose information about extraterrestrial life and advanced energy technologies through testimonies from high-level government and military officials. The reliability of the project has been called into question due to lack of concrete evidence and the controversial background of its founder, Steven M. Greer. While some view the project as a valuable source of information, others criticize it as being based on speculation and conspiracy theories. Overall, the reliability of the Disclosure Project remains a subject of debate.
  • #36
the passage of time does not make something impossible, become possible.

but we are saying something is impossible, according to what we refer to as established principles. in theory, we can't say something is impossible, to begin with.

it is not an argument about credulity. it is an argument about realities. and some mathematics to go along with it. go back a million years, and look at what was thought to be impossible. then another million years, another million years, etc.

then start going forward a million years, etc. we would have to be a bit arrogant to think that our million year span is the span in which everything we think is impossible remains impossible in the umpteen spans ahead of us.

my life is not cosmically important in the slightest little bit. i know i will die with mysteries unsolved. my statement had to do with the sorts of claims being made, and the number of these claims being made.

it seems to me that something imminent is bubbling at the top of the teacup, just waiting to fall out.
 
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  • #37
PL let's look at it another way:

1000 years ago, the physics for computers were as possible then as they are now. We just didn't know how.

1000 years ago, the physics for ftl travel was impossible, now the physics for ftl travel remain impossible, in the future, who knows, but it isn't looking good given what physics currently show. But hey, it may all change, but that doesn't change the physics they need to overcome.
 
  • #38
Physics-Learner said:
it seems to me that something imminent is bubbling at the top of the teacup, just waiting to fall out.

It seemed that way in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, the 00s, and, well.. .the trend continues! In the 20s it will seem the same way.

Welcome to the UFO phenomenon. We're always just about to get big news! Always just about to see proof!

I welcome it, but I remain skeptical.
 
  • #39
hi jared,

i agree completely.

i am simply saying that we can't know if something is impossible.

one thing i have noticed as i have grown older, is that i need to temper what i think is impossible. i thought that all this ufo stuff was a bunch of people wanting attention.

and any ufo researcher will admit that most submitted stuff is purely a hoax.

i simply just can't dismiss hundreds of high level people all coming forward with these sorts of claims as a bunch of hooey, just because it doesn't jive with my thought processes.

as i have matured, i realize that none of my thought processes are absolute. and i need to take in a claim, and measure how substantial it seems to be, and then possibly adjust my thought processes.

sorta like our standard practice of theory, testing, and then re-theorizing, if necessary.

i simply am not nearly as confident that this et stuff is a bunch of hooey, as i had previously thought.

when i saw this thread, i was curious as to what you guys thought. i know it is not about physics. but i was thinking that something in the pf lounge was not relegated to strict physics principles ?
 
  • #40
hi flex,

i can't say that i have given much credence to ufos, so i don't know the history like you probably do.

but all these top level people coming forward is not something that has ever happened before. i have tried to come up with an agenda as to why this might happen, and haven't been able to do so.

when it comes to society, i always suspect an agenda - i am certainly not one of these people who tend to believe in the supernatural, and all that stuff.

and i am still on the fence with regard to greer and ets.

the speed of light plays a big part of me being on the fence.

i would not be the least surprised to find out that there are millions of life forms in the galaxy. but the speed of light is too slow for anyone to get here and back, so to speak.

so i really gave it no credence that ets were ever here.
 
  • #41
hi flex,

i can't say that i have given much credence to ufos, so i don't know the history like you probably do.

but all these top level people coming forward is not something that has ever happened before. i have tried to come up with an agenda as to why this might happen, and haven't been able to do so.

when it comes to society, i always suspect an agenda - i am certainly not one of these people who tend to believe in the supernatural, and all that stuff.

and i am still on the fence with regard to greer and ets.

the speed of light plays a big part of me being on the fence.

i would not be the least surprised to find out that there are millions of life forms in the galaxy. but the speed of light is too slow for anyone to get here and back, so to speak.

so i really gave it no credence that ets were ever here.
 
  • #42
Please remember what a UFO is, an Unidentified Flying Object. Nothing alien there. Nothing about FTL travel.

Just because a 'high level' person comes forward as seeing something, doesn't make it anything other than that.
 
  • #43
hi jared,

if it was a few people, that is one thing. but we are talking about a few hundred. some of the people are claiming to be involved with the capture of spacecraft and the bringing in of actual aliens. not just roswell.

if there are truly ets, then it begs the question of how were they able to get here ?

i do agree that none of these high level people are claiming that the objects moved faster than light. we would have no way of measuring that, if it were happening, as far as i know.

but it is something that greer is saying.

to have true interstellar travel, either one needs to travel faster than light, or have access to some sort of dimension unknown to us, which changes what we typically think of as space, such that they could get from a to b without going the same distance that we would measure the distance from a to b, to be. no pun intended.
 
  • #44
Physics-Learner said:
when i saw this thread, i was curious as to what you guys thought. i know it is not about physics. but i was thinking that something in the pf lounge was not relegated to strict physics principles ?

I know you were talking to Jared, but I want to take a whack here.

There is a core issue here of reliability. What has been shown repeatedly is that human beings are among the worst observation tools. Optical illusions, hallucinations, cognitive biases, and everything else gets in our way.

So if an observation conflicts with carefully tested and repeatable data, it's best to discard the observation until there's more to investigate.
 
  • #45
Generation ship would be the most likely for interstellar travel (physically possible) as far as I'm concerned, but even that doesn't answer the supply issue.

So to say "either one needs to travel faster than light, or have access to some sort of dimension unknown to us" is utter rubbish. You might as well claim they have some sort of stasis system for long haul space flight.
 
  • #46
FlexGunship said:
There is a core issue here of reliability. What has been shown repeatedly is that human beings are among the worst observation tools. Optical illusions, hallucinations, cognitive biases, and everything else gets in our way.

So if an observation conflicts with carefully tested and repeatable data, it's best to discard the observation until there's more to investigate.

I was actually going to bring this very point up, regarding humans and optical illusions and inconsistent memory.
 
  • #47
Physics-Learner said:
but all these top level people coming forward is not something that has ever happened before. i have tried to come up with an agenda as to why this might happen, and haven't been able to do so.

It happens routinely. Look through history. Ever since the "official" beginning with Project Grudge, there have been plenty of government, military, and corporate officials that have gone on the record claiming they know someone who knows someone who swears they say something that they thought looked like the same thing a friend of a friend saw. Or that they got a report of a disc flying around a thing. Or two discs turned into one, or one had a light, or four lights, and it turned red. Or whatever...

Here's a list of what a UFO is:

 
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  • #48
FlexGunship said:
It happens routinely. Look through history. Ever since the "official" beginning with Project Grudge, there have been plenty of government, military, and corporate officials that have gone on the record claiming they know someone who knows someone who swears they say something that they thought looked like the same thing a friend of a friend saw. Or that they got a report of a disc flying around a thing. Or two discs turned into one, or one had a light, or four lights, and it turned red. Or whatever...

The official beginning was project Sign. Project Grudge began in response to project Sign.

Please show a specific example of a group of former officials publically going on the record.

It is also a misrepresentation to suggest these reports are all based on hearsay. Many people claim direct observations.
 
  • #49
Ivan Seeking said:
Please show a specific example of a group of former officials publically going on the record.

The original report of Project Sign favored the ET hypothesis.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sign)

J. Allen Hynek was a government employee for a while.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Allen_Hynek)

There's also the Rendlesham Forest incident.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendlesham_Forest_incident)
(Lt. Col. Halt's memo to the UK MoD)

In all cases, one or more government (or ex-government) official has claimed to be witness (first-hand or second-hand) to UFOs.
 
  • #50
it is not rubbish. i am talking about going back and forth, like you and i do when we take a trip.

i certainly know that we have optical illusions. i put no credence to these videos that show dots of lights in the sky.

perhaps you arent aware of what these claims are ?

they may be lies, but they are not optical illusions.

when you look up, and see a spaceship shining light down at your feet, that is not an optical illusion. this is why it has gotten the interest of a previous skeptical person.

a crashed spacecraft with aliens inside is not an optical illusion.

i am still skeptical, but not so sure any more.
 
  • #51
Physics-Learner said:
they may be lies, but they are not optical illusions.

when you look up, and see a spaceship shining light down at your feet, that is not an optical illusion. this is why it has gotten the interest of a previous skeptical person.

a crashed spacecraft with aliens inside is not an optical illusion.

There aren't any of those cases that I know of. There are claims; but a claim without evidence is like spaghetti and meatballs without the spaghetti and meatballs.

They are usually built upon speculation, or misunderstanding. In almost any case illusion, delusion, hallucination, or hoax are your best explanatory tools.

EDIT: Here is a link to a site that covers one specific topic: Venus. It lists several cases in which people has mistaken the planet for an alien spaceship... in one story a police officer reported that it was flying away from him and he made some humorous estimates as to its altitude. (http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/Venusufo.htm )

Take it seriously. These reports come from members of the SAME SPECIES that is providing "reliable" reports.
 
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  • #52
i totally disregard illusion, delusion or hallucination.

we are talking about many such claims. as i said, hundreds of high level people coming forward, all with substantial claims.

if it is a hoax, (which is the same thing as having an agenda), i come back to what in the world could it be for ?
 
  • #53
Physics-Learner said:
i totally disregard illusion, delusion or hallucination.

images-2.jpe


Physics-Learner said:
we are talking about many such claims. as i said, hundreds of high level people coming forward, all with substantial claims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

Which is more likely? That the entire solar system was torn asunder and the Earth collided with the sun and that only people in Portugal knew about it. Or that 100,000 people were wrong about the same thing?

100,000 people.

100,000 people swore the sun fell to the Earth.

Surely they can't all be lying!
 
  • #54
Physics-Learner,

If humans were good observers, we wouldn't need science. We come from a species that has believed in demons, ghosts, devils, and spirits. Only with the advent of science have we pulled ourselves out of the dark closet of superstition and ignorance. The problem is that when we disregard it, abandon it, and begin to accept unscientific propositions based on unscientific evidence we are thrust back into the darkened closet of superstition and ignorance.

So your plea for ignorance, your cry to disregard science and accept "eye witness accounts" in it's stead is falling on deaf ears.

The only candle we have to cast light on the mysteries of the universe is science. To snuff it out is intellectual high treason and to convince others to do the same is moral high treason.
 
  • #55
Physics-Learner said:
it is not rubbish.

You said:
to have true interstellar travel, either one needs to travel faster than light, or have access to some sort of dimension unknown to us,

What I proposed would give interstellar travel. Making your claim that you need one of the two above options rubbish.
I don't understand your whole "true interstellar travel" thing, if you travel at / near the speed of light you get time dilation which means you would only experience a few years but the universe would experience many if not hundreds or thousands. So no matter how you play it, the actual journey time is immense. Whether you experience the lengthy journey time or not, the rest of the universe still does so your whole "true interstellar travel" point is irrellevant.
a crashed spacecraft with aliens inside is not an optical illusion.

Proof such a vehicle exists please.
 
  • #56
i am not disregarding science. these people have claims that are substantial. they are not illusions.

i am on the fence. but i am not dismissing these claims. i do want proof.
 
  • #57
Physics-Learner said:
i am not disregarding science. these people have claims that are substantial. they are not illusions.

i am on the fence. but i am not dismissing these claims. i do want proof.

Could you at least admit to the possibility that they are seeing substantial illusions?

Look, you're going to have to actually tell a story or something. Put up a claim. Post a link. You're philosophizing on a topic which is clearly in the realm of science. These are not philosophical discussions. Either some UFOs are aliens visiting the Earth or they are not.

So far, not a single shred of evidence has indicated in the slightest degree that any UFO has been an alien spaceship. There is zero evidence. None. Nothing. Not a single iota of it. You seem to think there is. So let's see it!

I'm waiting for you to overturn the current scientific understanding of the universe. Hit us with it! YEAH!
 
  • #58
jared,

what i meant by true interstellar travel, is as i restated - going back and forth. not simply launching a spaceship that travels for millions of years before it reaches its destination. so once again, my statement was not rubbish. if you go back and forth between destinations thousands or millions of light years apart, you are doing as i described.

of course i want proof that this spaceship exists. this is what the whole disclosure project is about. the real wealth of the world is supposed to have the power such that they have control of the info, and the project is trying to get this info to be made public.

which is why i say i am on the fence. i would not be on the fence if we had true and definitive proof of said spacecraft .
 
  • #59
Physics-Learner said:
i am not disregarding science. these people have claims that are substantial. they are not illusions.

Proof they aren't illusions?

You contradict yourself. Saying they definitely aren't illusions and then asking for proof.

You have drawn a conclusion and then asked / look for the evidence to back it up. That is how religion works, not science.
 
  • #60
Physics-Learner said:
what i meant by true interstellar travel, is as i restated - going back and forth. not simply launching a spaceship that travels for millions of years before it reaches its destination. so once again, my statement was not rubbish.

S: (adj) interstellar (between or among stars) "the density of hydrogen in interplanetary and interstellar space" (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=interstellar)

S: (n) change of location, travel (a movement through space that changes the location of something) (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/per...WordNet&o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=&o3=&h=0)

You're using the "no true Scotsman fallacy" and you're doing it all wrong!

Your claim is rubbish. But if we accept it. Then all you've proven is that interstellar travel is impossible. Sadly, this is probably more true than we would like it to be.
 
  • #61
flex,

there is almost nothing that has 100% or 0% possibility.

so to answer your question, i suppose it is possible, mathematically.

but the percentage would be dismally small, such that the opposite would have such a high percentage, that one would certainly not be able to dismiss it.

i can't show you anything. i am not a high level military person that has had any access to anything. that is why i am here. if i already knew, i wouldn't be here asking - LOL.

i am just telling you what has been claimed by these high level RETIRED military.

you do have access to that.
 
  • #62
jarednjames said:
Proof they aren't illusions?

You contradict yourself. Saying they definitely aren't illusions and then asking for proof.

You have drawn a conclusion and then asked / look for the evidence to back it up. That is how religion works, not science.

i do not contradict myself. i said they weren't illusions. i did not say that it wasnt a hoax.

they are stating substantial statements. i want proof.
 
  • #63
1000 years to Alpha Centauri and 1000 years back or 4 years there and 4 back is irrelevant. Both are interstellar. The difference is, in the 1000 year trip, you and the universe experience the 1000 year time. In the 4 year journey you experience 4 years, the universe experience far more. You would get there and back in 8 years, by your perspective, not by anyone elses. Making any "you have to go faster than light" to travel interstellar argument null. You end up in a very similar set of circumstances regardless how you travel.

You are thinking of the Star Trek there and back in time for dinner.
 
  • #64
FlexGunship said:
S: (adj) interstellar (between or among stars) "the density of hydrogen in interplanetary and interstellar space" (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=interstellar)

S: (n) change of location, travel (a movement through space that changes the location of something) (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/per...WordNet&o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=&o3=&h=0)

You're using the "no true Scotsman fallacy" and you're doing it all wrong!

Your claim is rubbish. But if we accept it. Then all you've proven is that interstellar travel is impossible. Sadly, this is probably more true than we would like it to be.

this post makes no sense to me. let me repeat.

if the distance from a to b is a million light years (by our observation), and someone travels back and forth as we travel back and forth on a vacation, then one of two things must be true :

1) he travels faster than light, or

2) he is not traveling the same amount of distance from a to b, that we measure it to be.
 
  • #65
Physics-Learner said:
i do not contradict myself. i said they weren't illusions. i did not say that it wasnt a hoax.

they are stating substantial statements. i want proof.

Bare in mind the definition of illusion:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/illusion
1a. An erroneous perception of reality.
1b. An erroneous concept or belief.
2. The condition of being deceived by a false perception or belief.
3. Something, such as a fantastic plan or desire, that causes an erroneous belief or perception.

A hoax creates the illusion of alien spacecraft . Therefore, you are contradicting yourself and you are drawing a conclusion and then looking for evidence to back it up.
 
  • #66
Physics-Learner said:
this post makes no sense to me. let me repeat.

if the distance from a to b is a million light years (by our observation), and someone travels back and forth as we travel back and forth on a vacation, then one of two things must be true :

He defined interstellar travel. You aren't using correct definitions.

You cannot travel a million light years in a reasonable (there and back for dinner) time. It is physically impossible. The laws of physics do not allow it. This is not going to change no matter how far into the future you go.
 
  • #67
hi jared,

okay, now i see what you are saying. if someone was traveling close to the speed of light, he would make his journey in a rather short time, while we would measure it to be a long time ?

i do recall that in special relativity, someone on a light beam would measure no time elapsed, and no distance traveled, even though we would measure him to go from one end of the universe to the other.

but then special relativity supposedly breaks down at large enough distances.
 
  • #68
Physics-Learner said:
but the percentage would be dismally small, such that the opposite would have such a high percentage, that one would certainly not be able to dismiss it.

Wait, are you defending the claim that the sun "fell from the sky?" I literally don't understand your argument.

You say so many people can't be wrong. I show you a case where 100,000 people are wrong. And you say that they might be right?!

Physics-Learner said:
this post makes no sense to me. let me repeat.

if the distance from a to b is a million light years (by our observation), and someone travels back and forth as we travel back and forth on a vacation, then one of two things must be true :

1) he travels faster than light, or

2) he is not traveling the same amount of distance from a to b, that we measure it to be.

OR IT NEVER HAPPENED! EVER... AT ALL!
 
  • #69
jarednjames said:
Bare in mind the definition of illusion:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/illusion
1a. An erroneous perception of reality.
1b. An erroneous concept or belief.
2. The condition of being deceived by a false perception or belief.
3. Something, such as a fantastic plan or desire, that causes an erroneous belief or perception.

A hoax creates the illusion of alien spacecraft . Therefore, you are contradicting yourself and you are drawing a conclusion and then looking for evidence to back it up.

when i said it might be a hoax, i was referring to everyone lying, because they had an agenda.
 
  • #70
Physics-Learner said:
but then special relativity supposedly breaks down at large enough distances.

EDIT: removed by author; oversimplification and inaccurate
 
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