- #36
mheslep
Gold Member
- 364
- 729
Medicaid? Medicare? Veteran's?Nusc said:US [...] - it has no government run option.
Indeed?What are you trying to do here?
Medicaid? Medicare? Veteran's?Nusc said:US [...] - it has no government run option.
Indeed?What are you trying to do here?
You keep posting that, and I'll keep posting FALSE.turbo-1 said:France has a private heath-care system with publicly-funded insurance coverage. They spend less than half of what the US does per-capita, and they are #1 in the world for health-care outcomes. We are #37.
To amend the Public Health Service Act to provide for cooperative governing of individual health insurance coverage offered in interstate commerce.
To provide comprehensive solutions for the health care system of the United States, and for other purposes.
turbo-1 said:How about an article from the American Journal of Public Health? Are they spreading falsehoods about the superiority of the French model? Unlike the US model, when French people get sicker and require more care, their coverage actually improves, further reducing co-pays and out-of-pocket expenses. What a concept. Seems like those "freedom-hating cheese-eating surrender-monkeys" aren't all that stupid, after all. Of course, the average French citizen lives about 3 years longer than the average US citizen. But that's OK, because the US is so great that having fewer years to live here all evens out.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1447687
How about it?turbo-1 said:How about an article from the American Journal of Public Health?
Superiority of what? Soccer players? Yes the US men need reform in soccer, but US women are strong. What does this article have to do with your post #11 on outcomes? The article doesn't even use the word 'outcome', other than one time than to make a point about unequal outcomes by class in France.Are they spreading falsehoods about the superiority of the French model? ...
Ride the bus if you want to live longer.But that's OK, because the US is so great that having fewer years to live here all evens out.
Yes, though the French mostly don't have the high medical education bills, don't have the malpractice penalties. I'd say US docs are overpaid, or at least are not paid based on free competition. They basically collude on pricing and somehow escape anti-trust action. Same with US med-schools. There have been some proposals to break up the behavior.Choronzon said:Just more of the same—it points out all sorts of problems with French health care, including the fact that the median wages for doctors in France is $55,000 a year, which is pretty pathetic.
I don't think that's right - opponents also want care for everybody, they just don't want it run by the government (public option). As that NIH article says about France, it's possible to get universal health coverage w/out single payer or government run medical facilities - the French don't have single payer. I think however it is important to focus on medical care though, not coverage, as guaranteeing universal coverage alone just will get us a guaranteed place in a queue.Choronzon said:The study once again takes into account the fact that France has universal coverage, which is something that opponents of the Democrats plan for health care reform find undesirable.
To tighten up the analogy, that Lincoln would be costing not you directly, but costs you indirectly through your employer maybe $120k - yes its nice but the cost is insane, and the buyer is oblivious to the cost because he only makes the $20 copay.Choronzon said:You see, we want health care in the United States to be like a Lincoln—that is, awesome. Being dignified and useful human beings, we don't ask our government to buy it for us, and I'm quite content going through life worrying about myself and my family and providing what they need. Let France keep their Ford Focus, even if it's cheap enough for everyone. The fact that everyone has something in no way increases it's quality.
This gets a big , as I got stuck in France once due to a transpo strike.Choronzon said:And for the whole "freedom-hating cheese-eating surrender-monkeys" thing, the French generally have a sense of entitlement that dwarfs any American's ego. Those in the know are privy to the fact that France didn't help us invade Iraq not because they didn't improve of the war, but because every french male from 16-45 years of age was on strike at the time.
mheslep said:Yes, though the French mostly don't have the high medical education bills, don't have the malpractice penalties. I'd say US docs are overpaid, or at least are not paid based on free competition. They basically collude on pricing and somehow escape anti-trust action. Same with US med-schools. There have been some proposals to break up the behavior.
I don't think that's right - opponents also want care for everybody, they just don't want it run by the government (public option). As that NIH article says about France, it's possible to get universal health coverage w/out single payer or government run medical facilities - the French don't have single payer. I think however it is important to focus on medical care though, not coverage, as guaranteeing universal coverage alone just will get us a guaranteed place in a queue.
To tighten up the analogy, that Lincoln would be costing not you directly, but costs you indirectly through your employer maybe $120k - yes its nice but the cost is insane, and the buyer is oblivious to the cost because he only makes the $20 copay.Actually, I'm self-employed, so I quite realize the cost of my health-care.
France's medical outcomes are pretty good - not quite as good as the US but French medicine is no Ford Focus, they're at or near the top in Europe.
It may not have been the best analogy, but the point I was trying to make is that these studies have all taken into account the availability of health care when ranking the nations. However heartless it sounds, I want to know how good the health care is for me, not for some hypothetical average American. What's my chances of recovering from a major illness and living a long life? What about my brother and parents? My daughter? Statistics that include people who can't afford health care won't tell me that.
This gets a big , as I got stuck in France once due to a transpo strike.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/200...ecession?TB_iframe=true&height=650&width=850"
Read the second to last sentence. Ever since I read that, I've had a very hard time taking France seriously.
I think you misread, I agree $55k is too low.Choronzon said:So doctors should make less than a mediocre used car salesman? ...
You're redirecting this to being about your opinion which is fine, but in the prior post you were asserting what generic 'opponents' are doing, which I took to be lawmakers. Generally the Republican plans are attempting to cover everybody through the private insurance system and the existing entitlement programs.I disagree. While in principle it would be nice if everyone made enough money to afford their own health care, I accept the fact that some people will never do more in life than just scrape by, and I know the only way to actually cover them is to pay out of Government coffers. As that's a big no-no for me, I actually don't want universal coverage.
I've also have been self employed and priced individual insurance. You probably know full well to the dime what the insurance premiums cost, but I doubt very much if you know what your health care actually costs: the cost of prescription drugs, even the primary doctor's visit beyond the $20 copay - few people on plans pay attention to that.Actually, I'm self-employed, so I quite realize the cost of my health-care.
It's not heartless at all to want to know the competence and quality of the medical system. I make the point all the time that the US has unsurpassed medical quality. But it is not twice as good as all other countries, its only marginally better than many, though US care costs twice as much....the point I was trying to make is that these studies have all taken into account the availability of health care when ranking the nations. However heartless it sounds, I want to know how good the health care is for me, not for some hypothetical average American. What's my chances of recovering from a major illness and living a long life? What about my brother and parents? My daughter? Statistics that include people who can't afford health care won't tell me that.
mheslep said:I think you misread, I agree $55k is too low.
You're redirecting this to being about your opinion which is fine, but in the prior post you were asserting what generic 'opponents' are doing, which I took to be lawmakers. Generally the Republican plans are attempting to cover everybody through the private insurance system and the existing entitlement programs.
I've also have been self employed and priced individual insurance. You probably know full well to the dime what the insurance premiums cost, but I doubt very much if you know what your health care actually costs: the cost of prescription drugs, even the primary doctor's visit beyond the $20 copay - few people on plans pay attention to that.
It's not heartless at all to want to know the competence and quality of the medical system. I make the point all the time that the US has unsurpassed medical quality. But it is not twice as good as all other countries, its only marginally better than many, though US care costs twice as much.
Oh I missed this - I speculate that these high deductible plans are by far the most important innovation keeping costs from exploding more than they are. I could fill pages of personal anecdotes for myself and friends where the 'price' somehow dropped by half or the like when I/they were paying out of pocket.Choronzon said:but since I have a high-deductible and generally pay my doctors visits out of pocket, I think I do know up to that point.
Hard to put a price on that. I'd look at it a differently: the price of US health care has been going up at 8-9% per year for some time. 1. That's unsustainable, regardless of how much we'd pay a premium for 'a little better'. 2. The quality of the care has not been getting 8-9% better every year, my take. 3. In many ways the US has not had a free market in health care since WWII. In some states there is only one insurance company, and individual plans can't compete well without the employer health benefits tax break. So without a good market nobody can say what a fair price is....Are you sure? Is a 25% higher chance at survival for a specific procedure worth twice the cost? 15%? 10%? How about 2%?
If I had to answer that as honestly as a person can who isn't actually staring such a procedure in the face, I'd have to answer 5% higher survival rate is worth twice as much to me. Maybe if I was frightened I might even go down to 2%. Who knows?
WhoWee said:Alan Grayson is clearly the new face of the Democratic Party - maybe Obama will put him on the next ticket. The Republicans should encourage Grayson to speak as often as possible.
Nusc said:It gets even better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFK9XuXCeno&feature=channel
"we should care about people even after their born"
making reference to those who are against abortion but do not support health care.
The man deserves more credit.
Are you joking? You reference a propaganda piece by an obviously delusional idiot with an obviously socialist mentality, published by a special interest group?turbo-1 said:How about an article from the American Journal of Public Health? Are they spreading falsehoods about the superiority of the French model?
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1447687
No, I'm not defending anything, I'm arguing for my personal preference about how insurance should work as opposed to the current democratic plan about how it should work. Neither exists right now, but I believe my ideas are significantly better than what is proposed. I think everyone agrees that there are problems with what exists now. I'm just arguing that my "mythical" ideas about how to fix things are better than Obama's "mythical" ideas.turbo-1 said:Russ, you are arguing to defend some mythical "proper" insurance that does not exist.
WhoWee said:byronm, I see you're making your first post on PF. I'd like to be the first to welcome you. Care to tell us a little about your background and experience?
Byronm, posts in General Discussion (including sub-forums like Politics) do not add to your post count.byronm said:Not my first post, we've debated many times, not sure why its not increasing :)
My insurance dealings? When my sister died, when my brother got hit my a car, when my 2 children were borne and when i go into get lypomas removed and checked in case they have any risk of cancer. Wife's father died to lukemia and bankrupted her family..