Keep your seatbelt low and tight in flight, especially when seated next to a plugged door

[mfb]

United Airlines Boeing plane loses external panel in flight
They discovered that it was missing after the flight.

Make your bets: What's falling off next time?

 

[Vanadium 50]

And no one was seated in the two seats next to the plug. Was that a coincidence?

Probably not, but not in the way you think. There were 7 empty seats. Most people are trying to upgrade and not downgrade, so the empties tend to be in the back. These seats are cold, so tend not to get assigned first.

 

[Borg]

United Airlines Boeing plane loses external panel in flight
They discovered that it was missing after the flight.

Make your bets: What's falling off next time?

It's hard to tell from the photos on the internet but it looks like a section under the wing.

 

[morrobay]

All the bolts are in the bolt holes. So the (25 year old ?) panel material failed. Just seems to have torn off.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

All the bolts are in the bolt holes. So the (25 year old ?) panel material failed. Just seems to have torn off.

Great, so the new planes are missing pieces due to poor materials and workmanship and the old planes are missing pieces do to material fatigue?

 

[berkeman]

Oh crap. New Boeing engineers are now posting at PF asking for help keeping their aircraft stable...

TL;DR Summary: How to determine the effects of a heavy storage tank located at the rear of an aircraft might have on aircraft stability.

I'm working on a feasibility study for the integration of a liquid hydrogen storage tank for a Boeing 737-800. The tank weighs approximately 5000 kg and must be located towards the rear of the aircraft. I understand that this will shift the centre of gravity slightly further back and consequently affect stability. I want to test how various positions of the tank might affect this stability. If I could define the force balance equations and then generate some plots to show how each of the stability factors varies as the position of the tank changes and then find a happy medium that would be great. I'm just not sure how I should go about doing this, or what force balance equations/stability factors to use etc. Or if anyone has any other ideas to go about it, it would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[Borg]

WTH. Are they planning on putting it in orbit?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Boeing engineer

Did he say that?

I once was peripherally involved in moving something, um, unusual on a C-5 Galaxy. Didn't mean I worked for Lockheed.

 

[DaveE]

Oh crap. New Boeing engineers are now posting at PF asking for help keeping their aircraft stable...

I'm working on a feasibility study

There's just no way to know for a company as large as Boeing what this is. Having worked for a DOD contractor many decades ago, I can attest to the fact that things like proposals, or worse "studies", aren't always taken very seriously. The best engineering talent is rightly reserved for "real projects". I have seen VPs say things like 'we have to put in a bid on this even though we know we won't win'. Why not have a junior engineer with little support take a shot at the preliminary analysis? These things may be really important to the engineer that's been given the task, but perhaps not other's that have been around the block a few times. I've done similar things with new engineers just to give them some experience and to unload the garbage from my plate.

It reminds me of the time I had to do the engineering part of a proposal for a satellite based LIDAR power system with... three days from knowing nothing to done! I got no sleep and it was undoubtedly the worse proposal ever submitted to the Pentagon; hand drawn sketches and such.

Part of every engineering career is working for idiots.

 

[JB312]

Oh crap. New Boeing engineers are now posting at PF asking for help keeping their aircraft stable...

I'm a final-year engineering student in college and this is for a dissertation project, I don't work for Boeing ..

 

[Astronuc]

An overview of Boeing's situation.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/boeing-planes-problems-stock-price-shareholders.html

 

[Vanadium 50]

An overview of Boeing's situation.

I'm getting a biy grumpy by the continued claim that it was "maximizing shareholder value" that caused this. It;s easy to write, and it plays into the political beliefs of most journalists, but it is grossly oversimplified.

1. They didn't maximize shareholder value. The stock has lost billions.
2. Which is more valuable - a stock share that will return $2 once or one that will return $1 every year?
3. Cutting costs can help increase value, but nighty few companies have cut their way to the top.

The problem isn't that Management was trying to increase shareholder value. The problem is that they were trying to raise stock prices without creating value.

 

[Astronuc]

The problem is that they were trying to raise stock prices without creating value.

I would agree with that assessment - artificially inflating the value of the stock through actions like stock buybacks, outsourcing manufacturing, cutting corners, . . . . I was looking at the last 10 years of BA, from Oct 2016 to Sep 2019. On Mar 4, 2019, BA was at ~$422/share.

Lion Air Flight 610 crashed on 29 October 2018, then Ethiopian Air Flight 302 crashed on 10 March 2019, but surprisingly the stock held value (but with increased volatility), until about late Jan or early Feb 2020, when the stock price collapsed over the following months.

 

[mfb]

until about late Jan or early Feb 2020, when the stock price collapsed over the following months.

COVID, obviously. Airbus dropped massively as well. 133 in early January, 60 in early March. But Airbus has since recovered and exceeded its pre-COVID value while Boeing is still close to its March 2020 value.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I don't think buybacks themselves are evil. It essentially is a sale of stock from one group of sharegolders to another. The cash to do this came out of what would otherwise have been a dividend.

What's bad about them is that they can be used for the benefit of Management to the detriment of shareholders. If the CEO has 1000 options at $1, and the stock trades at $1, these options are worthless. If the company buys back half the stock, now the share price is $2 and the options are worth $1000. The CEO didn't actually improve the company - he just juggled the books to improve his bottom line, not the company's.

The real issue, in my mind, is that I don't want Management's attention focused on financial monkey business. I want it focused on building better airplanes and building airplanes better.

(Full disclosure- I have benefited from both sides of buybacks in the shares I own)

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Southwest Boeing 737-800 flight from Denver loses engine cover, FAA investigating​

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/07/business/southwest-boeing-737-800-engine/index.html

 

[mfb]

Make your bets: What's falling off next time?

No one bet on engine covers.

The cover was already at a weird angle at the start of the video, 18 seconds later they are still on the runway. It must have started to peel off early in the takeoff - but it looks like the pilots didn't learn that there was a problem until they couldn't reject the takeoff any more?

 

[Vanadium 50]

I like kicking Boeing when they are down as much as the next guy, but to be fair, they don't make engines.

 

[Flyboy]

They do make the cowling, or at least have a large role in it.

Tbh, this one is squarely on the shoulders of the line mechanics who last worked on the engine and closed out the cowl, and on the pilot(s) for not catching the issue during preflight walkaround.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Will it end?

A whistleblower claims that Boeing’s 787 Dreamliner is flawed. The FAA is investigating​

“I literally saw people jumping on the pieces of the airplane to get them to align,” Salehpour said. “By jumping up and down, you’re deforming parts so that the holes align temporarily … and that’s not how you build an airplane.”

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/09/business/boeing-787-whistleblower/index.html

 

[Flyboy]

Will it end?

No. Not until a top to bottom restructuring of Boeing Commercial Aircraft is accomplished and quality becomes a top priority again.

 

[DaveE]

Will it end?

Yes. When the news media gets captivated by the next big story... SQUIRREL!!!... Something about Taylor Swift or a migrant invasion, IDK.

Stories about 787 manufacturing issues have been around for several years. Stories about wheels and engine cowls falling off have little do do with Boeing; that's on the operators. I'm not dissing concerns about Boeing quality issues or corporate management. I'm not sure I'm comfortable flying on their planes. I am not about to defend them. But, I am questioning the current superficial media hype.

BTW, if you look at recent worldwide accident, or near miss, data, you'll likely conclude that both pilot and ATC training/competence, and operator maintenance/procedures is a bigger issue. Even with doors coming off and such, flying is safer than driving to the airport.

I'll also add that the cheap ticket for your vacation in Bermuda, or your business trip to Atlanta, is a significant part of the safety equation. There won't be an effective quality feedback loop if nobody wants to pay for it.

 

[russ_watters]

Stories about wheels and engine cowls falling off have little do do with Boeing; that's on the operators. I'm not dissing concerns about Boeing quality issues or corporate management. I'm not sure I'm comfortable flying on their planes. I am not about to defend them. But, I am questioning the current superficial media hype.

Perspective: where the rubber meets the road is in serious accident data. Two similar crashes in a short time for new plane points to a problem with the plane. Since then? Crickets. Most of what we're seeing now is minor incidents amplified by the media. They publish shocking stories but don't actually analyze the accident/incident data to see the big picture.

Are Boeing planes having more minor incidents than airbusses? We don't really know. Major accidents since MCAS? Both are so safe it's tough to get a clear read(which is great).

But they deserve it. They need to fix it and need to prove to their customers and flying public that they've fixed it(edit: and investors like V50). Otherwise the company will slowly die. Slowly because ironically the standardization that led to MCAS makes it hard for airlines to change while also disincentivizing innovation (designing a new plane).

 

[morrobay]

From search on New Boeing whistleblower: Not only are the allegations troubling: The assembly plant just temporarily mash sections together until they appear to meet FAA gap requirements. This engineer was retaliated against by supervisors and management when he reported the problems. So if that is the case then Boeing does not want to improve safety and change. It seems it is time to call spades spades about this Boeing & Co . Again have a search on the new Boeing engineer whistleblower and his allegations and retaliation at Boeing.I see no other interpretation than reckless disregard for safety with criminal negligence. If that
so called deferred prosecution is not revoked and charges made then the problem goes way beyond Boeing. Seems it is time for a FAA whistleblower protection program.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/what-did-boeing-whistleblower-sam-salehpour-reveal.html

 

[Astronuc]

Melius Research Managing Director of Aerospace, Defense & Space Robert Spingarn shares his perspective on Boeing.
https://news.yahoo.com/finance/video/boeings-company-culture-challenges-beyond-203802966.html

Spingarn hones in on cultural issues within the company, noting the "distance" between the factory floor and executives. The divide was intensified by Boeing's decision to move its headquarters from Seattle to Chicago in the early 2000s, Spingarn says, calling the move a "disservice."

In light of Boeing's leadership shake-up, Spingarn believes "the changes are gonna be more significant than they were in the past," which may help the company see a turnaround. With the current CEO, Dave Calhoun, set to resign at the close of 2024, Spingarn is uncertain whether Calhoun will remain in the role if a successor is chosen sooner. He emphasizes the need for the next CEO to have an engineering background and production floor experience — recommending names like Pat Shanahan and Gwen Shotwell.

 

[Vanadium 50]

This is unlikely to work. The problem is that a CEO only has as much power as his VPs let him have. And the culture is that financial jiggery pokery is the way to go. The next rung down has a vested interest in the new CEO failing.

 

[mfb]

The chance that Gwynne Shotwell leaves SpaceX to join Boeing is about 0.00000%. Don't know about Pat Shanahan, but more generally: The people that Boeing would need are unlikely to go to Boeing.

 

[morrobay]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68834525

 

[morrobay]

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/boeing-whistlblower-sam-salehpour-dreamliner

 

[berkeman]

From Facebook today:

 

[morrobay]

These allegations by whistleblower before his "suicide,"are really bad news about "this Boeing management" https://www.bbc.com/news/68907597?x...h.america]-[headline]-[news]-[bizdev]-[isapi]