Nine Months Later - Career Guidance Still Needed More Than Ever

[TheEigenvalue]

Hi, everyone. I haven't posted on this site for some time...at least seven months or so. I want to "re-kindle" my discussion that I started here:

My Previous Thread

The meat and potatoes of the story is that I excelled in Undergraduate School and obtained a B.S. in Mathematics with a minor in Physics. I then came down with a severely disabling mental illness (now diagnosed as Schizoaffective Disorder), which hurt my intellect in two ways. First, the general illness causes so much mayhem in one's brain that higher mathematics is simply not as easily grasped as before. Second, even when the symptoms of the illness are under control, the side-effects from the harsh medications (ie: antipsychotics) make it darned-near impossible to function at such a high level.

I went into Graduate School ready to get a Ph.D. in Mathematics. I made it half-way through one semester and had to leave due to a re-flare of the illness. I didn't work for the next year. Then, this past Fall Semester, I re-started at the same program but was essentially "forced out" because I couldn't keep up with the advanced course-work in a time-frame that was expected, despite being called "The best T.A. [the Math Department] has had in 25 years". It broke my heart and I frankly am still bitter to this day.

------------------------------

Fast forward to now. I have used some of the ideas for jobs highlighted on this site to search for meaningful employment. Let me first say that I have not found any. I have not worked since last year.

The ideas about working in Investment Banking sounded promising, so I spent the first four months after being "let-go" looking into that field. I frankly found absolutely nothing. First, almost all of the very-few positions required four to five years of experience WITH a financial institution. Second, there were NO entry-level jobs to gain such experience. I searched and searched and found nothing. I have no "network" like some lucky people (despite genuinely trying to engage with people socially), but I had one uncle who is an underwriter.

I flew down to Mississippi to see him, expected to gain some good information. Instead, I got absolutely nothing. He was very brief with me and dare I even say...rude. I left the trip nearly in tears and I am just starting to "recover" from that traumatizing experience right now.

So I still have no job. I have no job leads. And I am stuck in the same predicament:

1. I have a good degree and I am objectively very intelligent even with the medications.
2. I can only handle work that I actually enjoy. If I dislike what I am doing, my illness twists my mind in terrible ways and I end up in a horrible situation which inevitably involves my quitting soon after being hired.
3. I can't really handle "high-pressure" work or long hours due to the illness.
4. I also cannot pick up some manual labor job for a few bucks because the medications make it nearly impossible to even stay awake for 8 hours let alone do a physical task.
5. I have no "network".

So what would you all recommend that I do here? I want to work (I DO however receive a very very small Disability payment to allow me to afford food and gasoline) and it is degrading to be almost 25 with no job. And I want to do something I LIKE. I want Mathematics to be part of my job. Losing my "dream" of being a research professor has still never been "resolved" in my deepest psyche so this is very important. Thank You much.

 

[Physics_UG]

Eigenvalue, I can relate. I entered a PhD program in EE at 23 years old. I made it a year into the program (did ok in my classes and my research, I think) but ended up having a psychotic episode that forced me to leave the program. Later I was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder. I spent the next year after leaving in shambles and I couldn't find work anywhere. During this year I stopped taking my meds and had further psychotic episodes (very bizarre thoughts, voice in my head, paranoia, etc). I worked out those issues with medication and then decided to go back to the same grad school I left from (which was all the way across the country). I got stuck with a roommate I didn't like and I just couldn't motivate myself to do the work. I got in a deep depression (sleeping for over 16 hours a day) and had to leave again. I came home and finally found a job as a process technician at a semiconductor foundry but hated the work (not challenging at all). I decided to go BACK to grad school again (the same one) but I had the same issues as before. I came home and got a new job but the pay was lower than average and again, the work was just boring and unchallenging. I got a new job at a different place with better pay but the job leaves me sitting around with nothing to do most of the time except read journal articles and textbooks on magnetics. I occasionally do some magnetics modelling with some free software I found online. I still live with my parents and have no girlfriend, which isn't a big deal, but a gf would help a bit. I need to get my act together without a gf first before I can consider getting a girlfriend. Like you, I don't have much of a support network (no life, no friends) outside of my parents and my grandma.

I want to stop taking my meds altogether thinking it will give me more energy and change my outlook on things but I am afraid that if I do I will have another episode.

*sigh* Anyways, I don't know if this helps you or not, but I went through similar experiences. It pretty much ruined my life. I, like you, have wanted to become a professor. I don't even care where...I just wanted to teach at a university. I should have stayed in grad school the first time when I was excelling. I would have been able to pull through it, I know it. But I threw it all away and dropped out. Maybe I couldn't have handled it in the first place, I dunno, but I should have tried. I feel like I just didn't give it my all.

 

[Physics_UG]

Like you, I can only hold down a job and handle the work when I enjoy it but I doubt I will ever find anything I enjoy anymore. I just don't care about anything. I also can barely stand being at work for the 40 hours let alone put in overtime like my boss wants (not that I have a need to put in overtime since I barely have enough work to do as it is). I am 26 btw. I'll be 27 in July.

 

[Physics_UG]

Also, I would love to be a high school physics teacher but the requirements to get a teaching credential are ridiculous and it will take me like 2 years of full time study and student teaching before I could set foot in a classroom. That will just put me further in debt (I already have 50k in debt) for a job that barely pays 40K/yr.

 

[AlephZero]

Without wanting to kick somebody who is already "down", you have to get realistic about this. Everybody would LIKE a job where they only have to do the stuff they like, there's no pressure, and they don't need to even stay awake for 40 hours a week (i.e. 8 hours a day). (And a salary of say $250,000 a year would be nice, as well).

But the only people who think they are actually going to FIND a job like that are unemployable dreamers. And that's without having any medical conditions.

If I sound just like your uncle, maybe it's because both of us live in the real (and non-academic) world.

 

[chiro]

I'm afraid that any reasonable paying job (and even all the jobs that aren't) are in all likelihood going to have elements of stress and pressure, and parts which anybody will hate doing.

If an employer was going to interview you, they would screen for this: especially if they are experienced in hiring and have lots of experience with prior employees.

Also I'm surprised you tried to get into Investment Banking with your goals of getting into a job with minimum stress and hours that are 'not long'. To me it's highly ironic because this kind of environment, even for the technical people is not by any means going to be a walk in the park.

It's not politically correct to say what I will say, but then again I don't care much for that.

My guess is that apart from some selective employers, most will not hire you for the reason that most employers want employees who are able to deal with the pressures that come with the job, and can do the job in any capacity which means working the full eight or so hours. They also want people who can work with other people and are able to do this in a high order of magnitude.

There are however, some organizations and companies that hire people with disabilities (mental) for various reasons. Government departments can hire people with disabilities for office type work. Some companies will hire autistic and other similar kinds of people for various work (like with computer programming for instance, or for testing, or other different things).

You are not going to get a lot of money for low-stress jobs unless you have connections of nepotism, in which this is certainly something on the cards.

 

[TheEigenvalue]

I feel as though I am mis-communicating somehow. I get the perception that the above two posters are assuming I am some sort of "mal-adjusted" bad-kid who wants his cake and wants to eat it too.

No. I am simply a regular person who has a very serious medical condition which is preventing me from living my dream. Thus, I am asking for career advice in the fields of Mathematics and Science so that I don't spend the rest of my life in a job that I hate, stewing in bitterness for the next 50 years about how pissed I am that I had to leave Graduate School on no fault of my own, other than my own genetic flaws.

So, again, please just assist me in thinking of a rewarding career path that will pay enough that I don't have to live a life of poverty, not being able to enjoy even simple human pleasures such as eating at a restaurant, seeing a movie, or going on a date. Remember, girls don't date guys without some money, and I don't want to die a virgin never having loved or been loved.

And remember, government jobs are off the table as they won't hire someone with a mental illness of the gravity as the one I have. And HS teaching is out because it mainly consists of baby-sitting and being a political pawn to the Unions, which I have no intention on being the slightest bit involved in.

So please, just help me.

 

[Locrian]

I get the perception that the above two posters are assuming I am some sort of "mal-adjusted" bad-kid who wants his cake and wants to eat it too.

Well, the impression that I'm getting is that you're a sick individual who wants to have their cake and to eat it too. I really don't care what your excuses are. You've made it clear to me that you can't work hard, are incredibly picky about the work you'll do, and are functionally incapable of performing any task I asked you to do. You have a real illness and I sympathize with that, but the end result is a person who is indistinguishable from a lazy, entitled loser.

This may seem scathing, but the problem is that you’re also coming across this way to other people. Like employers. And probably your uncle. Really, even if you think you aren’t, you are.

The first thing you need to fix is how you present yourself to people. No more excuses. To anyone. Otherwise, even if you find that job (which I believe is imaginary) that you’d actually enjoy, you won’t get it.

 

[ThinkToday]

And HS teaching is out because it mainly consists of baby-sitting and being a political pawn to the Unions, which I have no intention on being the slightest bit involved in.

First off. Your attitude needs adjustment. Sorry, no nice way to say that. You have the gift of an intellect and the curse of a mental illness. At least you're not someone with the IQ of a peanut and mentally sound. It sounds like your illness is controlled with meds, but the meds impact other parts of your life. Having some family experience with mental illness (I'm not a doctor!), I would suggest separating out your problems. e.g. problem 1 = job, problem 2 = sucky life. IMO, if you're unhappy in life, it will be hard to be happy at work. Work is how many of us pay for the things we enjoy in life, if you don't enjoy life, work isn't going to mean much. I work to live, not live to work. Get some professional help on getting your sucky life together. Get outside, walk, fresh air, audit a college class (no pressure learning) and you'll meet people, and get a support network around you. I know many science types don't think much of religion, but they have some super support groups, youth groups, young adult groups, and free counseling. In the south, the Baptists (no, I'm not one) seem to have this covered. Some places the Methodists are pretty big. BTW, in my experience, they don't care what if any religion you practice, so not being XYZ, means little. IMNPO (In My Non-Professional Opinion), surround yourself with people that will not sit in judgment but will help keep life upbeat. When getting a job, attitude is huge. You can’t go at it as a victim.

Lastly, as the spouse of a teacher, you have it wrong. It’s only babysitting if you are a crap teacher. If you can motivate the minds of kids, the personal rewards are more than money can give. It’s not a bad job, pay is good, many states are non-union (e.g. TX), some paperwork issues, some parents suck, not all roses, but you can make a difference. I watch my children doing things like http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/ . Major universities have programs like www.rit.edu/healthsciences/cbet , www.ceismc.gatech.edu/studentprograms/high , etc. for kids to kindle interest.

When I see kids years later come to give my wife a hug, well, it doesn’t get much better in life. Be a teacher. Earn a hug.

 

[TheEigenvalue]

God. I am so sorry that this thread has turned out as negative as it has. I had no intention of starting so many people's tempers' up. You can ask any of my friends: I am a considerate, fair, kind, and honest person and I am sure you will not believe me about it, but it is true. Integrity and loyalty are the main things I strive for and I am shocked to hear people think I am some sort of "Welfare Queen".

I am sorry I even asked. Clearly, my perception of the world as a horrifying harsh, cruel place has been validated even on something as benign as a Career Discussion on a Physics and Math forum. I will try to pretend this discussion never occurred and will continue my miserable life the way it is, because it seems like the "real world" holds no place for me.

 

[ThinkToday]

God. I am so sorry that this thread has turned out as negative as it has. I had no intention of starting so many people's tempers' up. You can ask any of my friends: I am a considerate, fair, kind, and honest person and I am sure you will not believe me about it, but it is true. Integrity and loyalty are the main things I strive for and I am shocked to hear people think I am some sort of "Welfare Queen".

I am sorry I even asked. Clearly, my perception of the world as a horrifying harsh, cruel place has been validated even on something as benign as a Career Discussion on a Physics and Math forum. I will try to pretend this discussion never occurred and will continue my miserable life the way it is, because it seems like the "real world" holds no place for me.

I have to say, I think some comments have been harsh without being constructive. I was trying to be realistic about what I saw in your words. Things like "I re-started at the same program but was essentially "forced out" because I couldn't keep up with the advanced course-work in a time-frame that was expected, despite being called "The best T.A. [the Math Department] has had in 25 years". It broke my heart and I frankly am still bitter to this day." Words like "forced out" because you couldn't keep up in a timely manner. You say you are "bitter". You want them to hold things up for you? Being the "best TA" has nothing to do with being a capable student that can contribute in sync with the class. Your problems are things you need to work out, and you should in no way expect that balance of the class, teachers, and projects to wait for you to "keep up" in the "time-frame that was expected". Unless people are overtly discriminating against you, IMO, you need to look inward for problems and solutions.

 

[MathematicalPhysicist]

So, again, please just assist me in thinking of a rewarding career path that will pay enough that I don't have to live a life of poverty, not being able to enjoy even simple human pleasures such as eating at a restaurant, seeing a movie, or going on a date. Remember, girls don't date guys without some money, and I don't want to die a virgin never having loved or been loved.

Join the club, or the dark force as I call it.

 

[Travis_King]

I didn't see anything non-constructive or harsh with the exception of Locrian's post. The others seem to grasp the situation and are offering realistic advice. ThinkToday provided some realistic and, frankly, poingent points.

It may suck to get the wake-up call, but if you can't perform adequately at higher level maths, then you can't really expect to get a high paying job utilizing mathematics, right?

If you can't take long hours and stress (not to mention doing things you don't like), then you can't expect to get any meaningful job that relates to mathematics, let alone one that pays well and is (for the most part) exciting and interesting. Applied mathematics is generally quite rigorous, and often menial, repetitive, and boring. That's just the nature of the beast...

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

 

[TheEigenvalue]

So you are all saying that there seems to be nothing "wrong" with the fact that, simply because I inherited a terrible mental illness (and perhaps I didn't quite emphasize how terrible it is, but I am not a complainer - I am lucky to be alive or not serving a life sentence locked up in a state psychiatric hospital...I'll just say that), my entire life's dreams and desires should be crushed to the ground?

Because that is the essence of it. It isn't because I have a character flaw. Yes. You are right that I am still very much hurt and bitter over essentially losing everything that meant anything to me, but wouldn't anyone else? And for the record, I have been in intensive psychotherapy to address such issues for seven years now. Honestly, not much progress has been made, but I have been told it could take 20 freaking years to view life less hate-fully.

Let me review and re-but some of the points being brought up.

1. I complain about not being able to work long hours - the reasons for this is because I take five psychiatric medications that all list drowsiness as side-effects. Numero Uno would be Olanzapine, one of the most sedating medications known to man. However, I have tried many times to switch to something "lighter" but have ended up psychotic within two weeks. So I really don't know how I could fix this fact in any way.

2. I complain that I can't get a job I like - well...how would you feel if the job list you could choose from consisted of menial, demeaning, ego-crumbling, professions for which the average person on the street would laugh at and cringe simultaneously. Because that's the facts, unless I am missing something. And if I am- please do tell me...I truly AM trying to get some constructive advice and have not given up on the hopes of finding it, because I know that Math and Physics folks are incredibly creative and smart.

3. I complain about not wanting to teach HS - first of all, the long hour thing needs to be mentioned. Second of all, I don't want to get involved in Unions, as I view them in a negative light. Also, the majority of my time would be trying to drill basic algebra into people's heads, for which the majority of them don't give a darn. Talk about a stressful trigger for my latent illness! I can't see it going well. Third, people talk down on teachers. Don't deny it. I think teaching is just as important as research but most people DON'T. They think HS teachers are...well...people who couldn't cut it getting a Ph.D. And I don't want to become a freaking STATISTIC!So please continue to help me if you all promise to do so in a civil manner. Admittedly, the previous few posts have been more neutral toned, so that is good. I just don't think I deserve to be talked to firmly like a child.

 

[Locrian]

God. I am so sorry that this thread has turned out as negative as it has. .

You shouldn’t. If you’re a hard working individual with many positive attributes you could bring to a job then nothing we’ve said will change that.

But let’s review a couple of facts:

1) You come across to at least some random internet strangers as someone who needs an attitude adjustment.
2) You’re having trouble getting a job.

Could be coincidence. I think it isn’t. If you’re really a smart person who gets things done, then I think you’re misrepresenting yourself to potential employers. I think your resume is probably poorly constructed and I'm confident your interviews are a disaster.

Figure out if I’m right. If I am, you should be able to formulate a plan to improve your image problem. If I’m wrong, what’d you lose, really? A few minutes on the internet?

 

[Travis_King]

So you are all saying that there seems to be nothing "wrong" with the fact that, simply because I inherited a terrible mental illness (and perhaps I didn't quite emphasize how terrible it is, but I am not a complainer - I am lucky to be alive or not serving a life sentence locked up in a state psychiatric hospital...I'll just say that), my entire life's dreams and desires should be crushed to the ground?

Right and wrong have nothing to do with it. It's about managing expectations; fitting them with reality. Mental illnesses do not generally hand in hand with life dreams...

Because that is the essence of it. It isn't because I have a character flaw. Yes. You are right that I am still very much hurt and bitter over essentially losing everything that meant anything to me, but wouldn't anyone else?

You have a right to feel whatever you want. But it isn't the school's fault that you have the mental illness. They have to maintain their standards. You are just one of many people who failed the curriculum. You're reason wasn't lack of motivation or lack of aptitude, but reasons don't matter...if you don't meet the requirements, you don't pass. That's just academia.

1. I complain about not being able to work long hours - the reasons for this is because I take five psychiatric medications that all list drowsiness as side-effects. Numero Uno would be Olanzapine, one of the most sedating medications known to man. However, I have tried many times to switch to something "lighter" but have ended up psychotic within two weeks. So I really don't know how I could fix this fact in any way.

This isn't your fault, but it is something you'll have to learn to live with. High paying jobs generally require hard work and long hours for years before you are in a position to make the moves necessary for top salaries. Virtually no one simply starts at the top without putting in the time. Just another fact of life.

2. I complain that I can't get a job I like - well...how would you feel if the job list you could choose from consisted of menial, demeaning, ego-crumbling, professions for which the average person on the street would laugh at and cringe simultaneously. Because that's the facts, unless I am missing something. And if I am- please do tell me...I truly AM trying to get some constructive advice and have not given up on the hopes of finding it, because I know that Math and Physics folks are incredibly creative and smart.

I wouldn't feel great. But emotion has nothing to do with it. By your own admission, you don't meet / can't handle the requirements that are generally ascribed to the jobs you are seeking. I'm not saying give up hope, because I don't know what obstacles there are to overcome on the path you want to go down. But I'm saying that the things you are complaining about are not anyone elses fault. Companies don't hire on emotion. You may be swell at math and a decent guy, but if you can't physically handle the long hours and rigorous math, they'll hire someone who can...

Third, people talk down on teachers. Don't deny it. I think teaching is just as important as research but most people DON'T. They think HS teachers are...well...people who couldn't cut it getting a Ph.D. And I don't want to become a freaking STATISTIC!

Maybe some university professors and HS students think that, but most people do not. Teaching is an important role in the future of any civilization. Realize that many teachers got into teaching for the purpose of teaching HS. The life of academia is not for everyone. Not everyone wants to struggle to get a tenured position and be constantly under pressure to publish...Some people just want to teach.

I'll go ahead and say don't teach though. You obviously don't want to anyway, and nobody wants their kid to learn math from someone who thinks his time there is a waste, and isn't motivated to get kids interested in the subject.

So please continue to help me if you all promise to do so in a civil manner. Admittedly, the previous few posts have been more neutral toned, so that is good. I just don't think I deserve to be talked to firmly like a child.

Just a final note. If you want only positive remarks, ask us to up your spirits. If you want actual advice (and note that almost none of us are "qualified" to give advice), then you've got to deal with the fact that that advice might not align with what you want to hear.

Hope I didn't come across negatively, just my $0.02

 

[daveyrocket]

Lots of people have dreams about being a professor and teaching at university but don't get there. Academia produces roughly 10 times as many PhD graduates as the number of positions that open up. Even if you didn't have your mental illness there'd be roughly 9/10 chance that other factors would have prevented you from becoming a research professor.

Regarding your points:
1. I don't have any advice for you on this topic, other than to discuss it with your psychiatrist and see if they have any suggestions for treating the drowsiness.

2. I don't think the average person on the street would "laugh at and cringe simultaneously" at very many jobs. Since you have a degree, you probably can find some job other than cleaning toilets or picking up garbage. There is something to be said about having a job that pays you enough to do things you do enjoy, even if you don't enjoy the job itself very much.

3. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to teach HS. You don't have to justify it. Some people like it, some people don't. Personally, I don't like being around teenagers very much, so that's it for me. If you don't want to teach HS that's fine.

A few things to keep in mind: for any profession out there, you can find people who talk down on it. There are people who talk about university professors being pompous and out of touch with reality in their ivory towers (and there's some significant truth to that). You can't pick a profession based on the fact that some people will talk down about it, otherwise you'd never end up doing anything. Also, no matter what you end up do you will be a "freaking statistic" in some measurement or other. You can't judge a job based on this, because all jobs will be a part of this.

Another thing: the job market stinks right now. Finding your ideal job is going to be nigh impossible at this point. Once the economy gets better it may become easier. My advice to you is to focus on what jobs are out there, and try to apply to anything that you're more-or-less qualified for and might not hate. Like others have said, you need to change your attitude towards what work you will be willing to do.

Oh, and:

Remember, girls don't date guys without some money...

That's not true. My sister has dated more than enough losers who had no money or jobs to disprove that. And I guarantee you that she's not the only one. Some girls are like that, for sure, but if you want a lot of money to date girls like that you will be left wondering whether she is dating you because she genuinely likes you or because of the money.

 

[TheEigenvalue]

Ok. I am still left, however, with the main question un-answered despite everything else (be it good or bad that it was discussed):

What type of rewarding jobs could I look into getting? And by rewarding, think of yourselves in the job, considering most of the folks on this forum tend to have a similar outlook on things and many also want or have wanted/dreamed of being a research professor.

As for my "attitude problem", I think that in "real life" no one has any idea, other than my immediate family and friends, of how miserably bitter and hateful I am. I have many, many years of practice for "putting on a smile" and all of that stuff that people enjoy. I simply felt that, since I was seeking advice on an anonymous forum, I would "let my guard down" and express my true emotions rather than mask them like I do for the general public.

As for my actual resume, it is very good. The only flaws being that I have random gaps of time without work experience, but I can't fix that. That would require finding a cure for Schizoaffective Disorder that doesn't turn one into a walking zombie.

As for the fact that I am so bitter about it and everyone's suggestion that I "see my psychiatrist about it", like I said, I have been in therapy for nearly a DECADE trying to come to terms with this horrible condition. I have made next to nil progress despite trying harder than I tried to make it through those Analysis problem sets. In fact, I have had to switch therapists at least five times because they all get to the point where they literally admit: "I have no idea how I can help you anymore. Sorry". And frankly, that scares the crap out of me.

It is such a shame that I was born into a lower-midde/working-class family and not some sort of aristocracy. For the aristocracy, not having a job is seen as a good thing and not a character flaw!

If you feel you have some sort of "wise advice" you could give me about how to settle my bitter mind, feel free to tell it to me. I am not hurt anymore by harsh words than I am hurt by the raw reality of how unlucky my life has been. Nothing on Earth could hurt more than that realization.

 

[daveyrocket]

As far as your medications and their side-effects go, I doubt anyone here is any more qualified than a psychiatrist to give you advice on it. I assume you've already looked into any sort of government assistance for disability, or any job placement for people with psychiatric disabilities, but if you haven't that might be something to look into.

And I know it's hard to change your attitude. The thing is the negative and bitter attitude will likely continue to make things worse for you. It's a vicious cycle; bad life circumstances -> bitter attitude -> worse life circumstances -> even more bitter attitude. You have to break out of it. I don't have any idea how; you've probably tried all the SSRI's and whatever else is used to treat depressive disorders that's out there. But if you don't find a way to turn it around it will be difficult to improve your life circumstances.

 

[ParticleGrl]

What type of rewarding jobs could I look into getting? And by rewarding, think of yourselves in the job

I think most people have talked a bit about their job- and the common factor is all jobs have mundane tasks. Personally, I do data analysis for an insurance company. Lately, its been about 20% fun and exciting, 80% routine task. This is a similar mix to graduate school for me (I loved starting new projects and that difficult period of trying new things to find what works, I found writing up the projects to publish fairly mundane, as was dealing with reviewers. I loved lecturing and office hours, but absolutely hated grading, etc).

Basically, even the best jobs have a lot of mundane tasks you have to do. You have to have the maturity to do the mundane tasks that need doing.

 

[Nano-Passion]

Hey Eigenvalue, I have always admired your perseverance. My brother also has schizophrenic disorder, but the difference between you two is astonishing. Perhaps it was due to him being off medication for such a period of time.

Reflecting on the previous thread, it is good that you have an interest (my brother has virtually none even after effort on my part), but please do try to spread yourself out. Do not pigeonhole your spectrum of interest to only mathematics. Life is too beautiful and intricate to only have a passion for one thing. I say, have a passion for many things! There are a lot of other intellectual ventures that are such as exciting and beautiful in their own way. I say this because it is not healthy to one's self worth when their sole interest is in a field that has banished them. Your self worth is most definitely not attached to mathematics.

If I remember correctly, you are from NJ? If so, there is a program that helps you land a job (I will notify you of the program's name once my other brother comes home from work). My brother applied to it recently. If you don't live in NJ, there might also be similar programs to aid you.

 

[Nano-Passion]

I'm not sure what jobs will be satisfying for you, but there are a couple of programs that support people who are in your state that can give you things like housing and money allowances. Please do a google search.

You don't have to work full time. And in fact, if you consult one of the programs that my brother applied for in employment, they might find you the intellectually stimulating job that you seek for part-time. But please also note that, no matter what, there will always be grunt work.

Also, if you want people to suggest jobs then please give a list of things that you would like. For example, do you like programming?

 

[Nano-Passion]

I'm not sure why people are insisting to do the "tough talk" with Eigenvalue. In fact, I find it offensive. Schizophrenia is a neural condition, and epso facto affects a variety of things in an individual. Unless your a licensed psychiatrist and your absolutely know what your doing, DO NOT try the tough approach. Especially not to someone who has centered their life around one thing and only to have it stripped away. You will do more harm than good. Individuals who have centered their life around one thing face an unhealthy and unstable peace of mind once that is taken away.

Unless you know how schizophrenia and how medication affects the dynamics of the brain, then please, keep the uninformed comments to yourself. Because you are doing more bad than good.

Eigenvalue, I will refer bpatrick to this topic. Having a background in terms of the brain; I believe he will be better suited to help you.

Well, the impression that I'm getting is that you're a sick individual who wants to have their cake and to eat it too. I really don't care what your excuses are. You've made it clear to me that you can't work hard, are incredibly picky about the work you'll do, and are functionally incapable of performing any task I asked you to do. You have a real illness and I sympathize with that, but the end result is a person who is indistinguishable from a lazy, entitled loser.

This may seem scathing, but the problem is that you’re also coming across this way to other people. Like employers. And probably your uncle. Really, even if you think you aren’t, you are.

The first thing you need to fix is how you present yourself to people. No more excuses. To anyone. Otherwise, even if you find that job (which I believe is imaginary) that you’d actually enjoy, you won’t get it.

Excuse me, I'm not Eigenvalue-- but I find that highly offensive.

The whole philosophy of "you can do whatever you set your mind to" is neat and all; but it does not take into account a myriad of factors. However, that is not to say that one shouldn't be as positive minded as possible.

 

[TheEigenvalue]

Nano-Passion: Thank you very much for taking a look at my thread. Having a loved one with the disorder yourself, you clearly can grasp some of the aspects that are hard to simply define in words or write in the DSM-IV manual.

I live in PA now and I recently received a packet about a program to "ease" into a job run by the State. I talked with my mother about it the other day and I figure it is worth looking into. I mean, if it is just menial jobs and such, there was no harm done in simply looking. So I might as well look into it.

I agree that when a person pigeon-holes their entire life, it puts them in a very dangerous position should, in the very unlikely but possible case, something happen in their lives that strips it from them. I suppose my situation is analogous to an Olympic track runner who suffers permanent nerve damage in their legs or something.

So I guess it can be advice to ANY of us: While you still can, broaden your life so you aren't defined by one thing.

 

[Nano-Passion]

Nano-Passion: Thank you very much for taking a look at my thread. Having a loved one with the disorder yourself, you clearly can grasp some of the aspects that are hard to simply define in words or write in the DSM-IV manual.

I live in PA now and I recently received a packet about a program to "ease" into a job run by the State. I talked with my mother about it the other day and I figure it is worth looking into. I mean, if it is just menial jobs and such, there was no harm done in simply looking. So I might as well look into it.

What is the program's objective? My brother's program is there to help him get a job that is suited for him, they do all the work in finding a job. I'll send you the name of it by the end of the day or tomorrow.

I agree that when a person pigeon-holes their entire life, it puts them in a very dangerous position should, in the very unlikely but possible case, something happen in their lives that strips it from them. I suppose my situation is analogous to an Olympic track runner who suffers permanent nerve damage in their legs or something.

No it happens often. Think of all the people who studied their whole lives in one area, only to have to look for a job somewhere else. Theoretical physics comes to mind.

So I guess it can be advice to ANY of us: While you still can, broaden your life so you aren't defined by one thing.

It isn't too late. You can start now. Personally, I've went from liking nothing, to liking pretty much everything. During my internship this summer, I've also picked up a hobby in programming. +1 for the list.

You can always increase your interest, so long as you pursue a field that is closely related. From mathematics you can increase your range of interest by things like physics, mathematical neuroscience, and so on. In fact that is how my interest spread. It started from physics, then went on to mathematics. From neuroscience to psychology and biology. So on and so forth.

 

[Nano-Passion]

Have you spoken to your psychiatrist about motivation problems?

One person suggested GABA complex [last post in this link--> http://www.health-forums.com/alt-support-schizophrenia/why-does-schizophrenia-affect-motivation-31285.html ]. You should aim to confirm the accuracy of his statement though.

 

[NegativeDept]

I went into Graduate School ready to get a Ph.D. in Mathematics. I made it half-way through one semester and had to leave due to a re-flare of the illness... despite being called "The best T.A. [the Math Department] has had in 25 years".

You probably already know this, but just in case: John Nash, Jr. had schizophrenia and was still an extremely productive math researcher. I think he first developed serious symptoms after getting his PhD, so it's a different situation. Still, it might be helpful to read about him and the techniques he used to control his illness.

The ideas about working in Investment Banking sounded promising...
3. I can't really handle "high-pressure" work or long hours due to the illness.
5. I have no "network".

It's quite difficult to get a quant interview with an undergrad degree and no network. But more importantly: quant jobs are usually high-pressure and require VERY long hours and lots of programming. (I haven't worked as a quant, but I've read lots of books and posts by quants, and they are nearly unanimous about this.) So IMO, quant jobs are a terrible match for your career goals.

So what would you all recommend that I do here?

It sounds as if you enjoy teaching mathematics, take pride in it, and are very good at it. Based on what little I know about you, a teaching job sounds like a smart bet. The hours are not always awful and it sounds like you deal well with the type of stress that job imposes.

Adjunct professors, community college instructors, and high school teachers don't make quant money, but not all of them are poor, either. Assuming you're in the US, the biggest problem will be getting stuck as "part-time" or "independent contractor" status with no company-sponsored health insurance. That would leave you with a pre-existing condition in the completely dysfunctional individual insurance market. But if you can find a teaching position with solid health coverage, you might be able to get steady treatment for your illness. Then you could finally get back to learning math and/or doing original research!

 

[Wayn3]

I have not read most of the thread but am going to comment on possible options that I know about:

1. Quant

The quant world is in limbo right now. The stressful hours and garbagety overall working conditions are the same as they were in the past, but people are not making the big moneys anymore. The number of available jobs is decreasing and any available position is filled by someone experienced who is taking a big pay cut just to have a job.

You won't get in here. Not if you were in perfect health and a top3 MIT graduate willing to work 16hours a day 6 days a week. Even if you could, this would be the worst possible fit for your situation.

2. Consulting firms

Like Boston Consulting Group. Similar problems. Long hours, but boring *** work in addition. Not something you would want to get into, taking into account you wanting to do so interesting work.

3. Market Makers - Trading

Examples: Optiver, Tibra Trading, IMC, Jane Street blablabla

Not as well known firms, but potential to get rich real fast. These require you to be really fast at mental arithmetic and good at "problem solving" (read typical IQ test questions). Long hours are expected but the environment is friendly and lots of fun. I imagine this to be stressful though.

This is the career path ill take soon.


From what youve said, I imagine all of these to be not a good fit for your health. The problem with getting rich is that you need to be able to put in the hours. But I don't imagine getting rich to be your #1 priority. "Having a job" is somewhat of a different goal.

Have you considered teaching? Is this beneath you? In my opinion, that's a good fit. From what I've heard, teachers make not all that much money in exchange for a relaxed lifestyle. You could do research in your spare time at your own pace. This might be different from the prestigious assistant professor, but sadly, we have to play the hand life deals us. Maybe it a spends a bit solace that most (all) "professors" don't really do research anyway. Theyre more like a manager of people who do research, so its not at all different from a boring manager position at some firm.


Feel free to contact me via pm if youre interested in learning more about something. Maybe the harsh words youve heard are because youve tried to enter one of the most competitive fields while explaining that you can't work their hours, which might have come off a bit strange.

 

[TheEigenvalue]

Hello, again, everyone. I have had a good five days to think through this now since I got the original replies to my post. I decided to wait awhile for the 'dust to settle' before I would post something inflammatory because my condition makes me view everything in a very paranoid light and what was written to my on the first page made me feel threatened even though I know objectively it is not so. That is just how the brain works in Schizophrenic-disorders (or at least the Paranoid variety which I have).

So it seems like the ideal of making a "cool million" as a quant (I had forgotten what the term was haha) isn't looking so good for ANYONE, so I guess I shouldn't feel bad about not being one of those folks since they are likely in a position of high employment 'volatility' (to pun on the current quantitative economic situation...)

I perhaps should have explained how my disability affects me RIGHT NOW in more detail rather than explaining it in the past. Currently, although I am on a very fine-tuned medication regimen, I still suffer the following, and it is unlikely that will EVER change unless an entirely new breed of antipsychotics is developed. And according to one "specialist" psychiatrist I saw for a time, it will likely be 10-15 years before that happens as the patents haven't worn out for the so-called "Atypical" antipsychotics (which I take - Zyprexa/Olanzapine). But they aren't that atypical as they still have the same pharmacological profile as things like Haldol and Thorazine. So, my current struggles:

1. Energy levels - I struggle to get out of my antipsychotic-induced fog in the morning. I always get up before 8:30 am no matter what (setting a routine is important with such an illness), but it takes until 12:00 noon until I am "functional". Then I have a short window from like 12:00 pm - 5:00 pm where I can do stuff.

2. Motivation - Psychosis literally atrophies the part of the brain responsible for motivation (the Meso-Cortical Dopamine Pathway), so I struggle to do anything more than simply 'existing'.

3. Residual paranoia/ anger - even with all the meds, I still find people very threatening.

4. Bitterness - at the loss of my dream because of a biological/genetic flaw.

As for teaching, I am not opposed to it in itself, but it is what comes WITH teaching I don't like. For example, as a TA (which, recall, I was considered the best they had in 25 years), all I did was lecture, have office hours, and do minor grading and grade entering. With HS, I would have to be a baby-sitter, I would have to deal with "teaching to the test" and all of the political aspects of teaching, in addition to mostly teaching relatively boring stuff. I would imagine they wouldn't let me teach "the good stuff" like AP Calc until I was well-established.

That's my update.

PS - What does an entry level HS Math or Physics teacher even make? Is it really enough to be able to live on one's own without having to sacrifice eating meals and such?

 

[Nano-Passion]

Hello, again, everyone. I have had a good five days to think through this now since I got the original replies to my post. I decided to wait awhile for the 'dust to settle' before I would post something inflammatory because my condition makes me view everything in a very paranoid light and what was written to my on the first page made me feel threatened even though I know objectively it is not so. That is just how the brain works in Schizophrenic-disorders (or at least the Paranoid variety which I have).

So it seems like the ideal of making a "cool million" as a quant (I had forgotten what the term was haha) isn't looking so good for ANYONE, so I guess I shouldn't feel bad about not being one of those folks since they are likely in a position of high employment 'volatility' (to pun on the current quantitative economic situation...)

I perhaps should have explained how my disability affects me RIGHT NOW in more detail rather than explaining it in the past. Currently, although I am on a very fine-tuned medication regimen, I still suffer the following, and it is unlikely that will EVER change unless an entirely new breed of antipsychotics is developed. And according to one "specialist" psychiatrist I saw for a time, it will likely be 10-15 years before that happens as the patents haven't worn out for the so-called "Atypical" antipsychotics (which I take - Zyprexa/Olanzapine). But they aren't that atypical as they still have the same pharmacological profile as things like Haldol and Thorazine. So, my current struggles:

1. Energy levels - I struggle to get out of my antipsychotic-induced fog in the morning. I always get up before 8:30 am no matter what (setting a routine is important with such an illness), but it takes until 12:00 noon until I am "functional". Then I have a short window from like 12:00 pm - 5:00 pm where I can do stuff.

2. Motivation - Psychosis literally atrophies the part of the brain responsible for motivation (the Meso-Cortical Dopamine Pathway), so I struggle to do anything more than simply 'existing'.

3. Residual paranoia/ anger - even with all the meds, I still find people very threatening.

4. Bitterness - at the loss of my dream because of a biological/genetic flaw.

As for teaching, I am not opposed to it in itself, but it is what comes WITH teaching I don't like. For example, as a TA (which, recall, I was considered the best they had in 25 years), all I did was lecture, have office hours, and do minor grading and grade entering. With HS, I would have to be a baby-sitter, I would have to deal with "teaching to the test" and all of the political aspects of teaching, in addition to mostly teaching relatively boring stuff. I would imagine they wouldn't let me teach "the good stuff" like AP Calc until I was well-established.

That's my update.

PS - What does an entry level HS Math or Physics teacher even make? Is it really enough to be able to live on one's own without having to sacrifice eating meals and such?

If I was you, I would take advantage of some of the programs set in place to help you. Also, based on your symptoms, I wager that a part-time job would suit you best.

You should message John Nash and develop a dialogue with him. It would be nice to see things from his perspective to receive advice from someone who was in a similar position as yours.

Actually on second thought, I'm not sure if he would offer good advice. He is against taking medicine while having schizophrenia, and took his medication only whilst under pressure. From my experiences, not taking medicine is like deciding to kill your brain slowly because your cognitive processes only get worst.

 

[nevere]

i'm in sort of the same situation as you are, from what you've said i believe you need to find a medication that is more effective so you can stay awake and control symtoms before you start looking for work.

if you don't mind me asking, what kind of medications are you on?

 

[StatGuy2000]

To the other posters here, I find it quite surprising that many of you consider teaching (in particular high school teaching) as a low-stress job. From what I recall when I was in high school (many years ago), teachers often expended considerable energy in handling the "troublemakers" (i.e. the smart-asses, the class clowns, the disruptive types, etc.) on top of teaching the curriculum. Frankly, this is hardly what I call "low-stress", and is certainly not a good fit for someone with paranoid tendencies.

To the OP:

I am so sorry to hear about your predicament, and truly feel for your situation. I know someone who suffered a serious mental illness (one of my close friends is her legal guardian), and understand how she struggles just to get by on a daily basis.

In an ideal situation, you really should have someone in your life who can help you to cope and adjust to your day-to-day activities and providing for your welfare (as my friend does); in the absence of that, I'm not sure what I can suggest.

I concur with what Nano-Passion states that perhaps a part-time position may be best. Since you already have a mathematical background, perhaps I can suggest that you spend the time when you are most functional to teaching yourself some programming languages, so that perhaps you can take on a part-time telecommuting position in software or IT work. These are intellectually challenging and since you are telecommuting, you don't have to directly interact with people face-to-face. Anything related to phone work could also be an option.

Just my humble 2 cents worth here. I wish you all the best.

 

[NegativeDept]

To the other posters here, I find it quite surprising that many of you consider teaching (in particular high school teaching) as a low-stress job.

I didn't mean to imply that it's low-stress! I've been in and out of teaching work for almost 15 years, and I agree that it can be very stressful. I only mean to say that it's a particular type of stress for which some people are better suited than others.

Frankly, this is hardly what I call "low-stress", and is certainly not a good fit for someone with paranoid tendencies.

Hm, that does sound like a valid and important point.

I suggested teaching because it sounds like TheEigenvalue has a track record of doing well as a teacher. OP: in your experience, did your condition negatively affect your teaching? I know some people find that teaching gives them mental clarity - and for others, it's quite the opposite.

 

[Riothamus]

I am afraid I am in a position to provide nothing authoritative, only recommendations based on personal experience, personal observation, and casual reading.

As far as the matter of employment, have you considered trying to go into business for yourself? For example, you loved the process of teaching - perhaps offering yourself as a private tutor. This would let you target people who need to learn things, skip most of the politics, and perhaps most advantageously allow you to select your own hours. You could even target college kids. Try for a school near you with a high population of upper class students.

Another related suggestion would be to find something enabling you to work from home, which often are flexible on the subject of hours and furthermore would insulate you from various stressors, i.e. being in public or a group work environment.

As a final note on employment, you mentioned that you are 25. I point out that you (we, since I am 27) are not yet old; if we are conscientious in our choices and stay mentally active, we may reasonably expect a minimum of 50 more years of fine function. Jumping right from nothing to a career is a pressure, but a false one. Indeed, the idea of a career is in the process of getting a kick in the teeth; the average person, I have read, changes jobs six times over their professional life. Further, the second most in-demand category of education is Liberal Arts degrees, on the strength of versatility and communication skills. According to a conversation I had with a former recruiter and current marketer for a profession-based non-profit, market research suggests that a diverse skill set will be the course of the future as whole industries rise and fall in the span of single 'careers'.

As far as tackling your set of personal problems are concerned, I have a couple of suggestions, which are vague because of my lack of authority to offer any prescription and lack of knowledge about all your details.

First, keep yourself gainfully occupied. If employment is not on offer, when you are not searching, find something else to do. Continuing to learn is huge - since you were going to be a professor, your ability to do so must be strong. Amplify something you understand only the basics of, or return to mathematics on your own - EdX, free courses online from Stanford, Khan Academy, a public library, it matters not. Furthermore, if you search Ronin Institute you may find the opportunity to contribute to scholarship outside of academia. The movement is young, however, so you can reasonably expect minimal support - but perhaps a larger impact.

Quick aside, perhaps securing a technical certification of some sort would be feasible. The training is usually short, the hours often flexible especially through a local community college, and employment is often guaranteed by perpetual shortage. It is also cheap, and financial aid may be available for the certification or someone with your general category of condition.

Have you considered something like volunteer work? It has been suggested several times elsewhere in the thread that you seek out support groups for people with your condition specifically or as a category. Perhaps if one is lacking, or you want a different focus, you could look into starting one. Given that other members of this forum have expressed the ability to empathize, and either are themselves or know someone who is suffering from similar problems, the people are there to help. I myself have experienced, and it has long been demonstrated, that helping others is a very effective motivator and mood adjuster.

To say that it will help your resume is somewhat misleading, for everything you do for free is unconditionally inferior to what you do for pay, but the flip side of the coin is any work you do no matter the circumstance is unconditionally superior to not doing any work at all.

Another point is on the networking front. This is, to my mind, a really poorly emphasized concept, because the articulation of it consists of having every person you ever met in your rollodex and then calling around begging for jobs. The implication is that if it is big enough, you'll get one. This is false, and as far as I know in professional circles considered awful form in the first place. Your network is only as good as your social connections, and that is the primary function of it. It simply has professional benefits, namely inside information. If you lack a network, then you shall grow one. It isn't any different from making friends, really, except you add the professional dimension to your decisions about whether to keep in touch with people or not. It's not much of a jump for me, so far - interesting person? Keep 'em. They do something interesting? Keep 'em, too. How many people do something interesting but are themselves totally boring? Win-win. Of course, I haven't worked mine for anything yet, so my attitude on the process may yet sour...[chuckles]

Nutrition and exertion: I read that medical professionals tend to over look this in cases where it isn't an obvious problem, but have you considered changing the way you eat or adjusting your physical activity to improve your lifestyle? Claims that running cures depression directly are demonstrated to be false, but I cannot recall reading anything that doesn't suggest a positive correlation between proper nutrition and physical fitness and mental health. Given that you are up against a suite of medications that make you drowsy, you might find adjustments for the purposes of boosting metabolism or avoiding lethargy beneficial. I have long experience with using exercise to promote wakefulness - perhaps a morning workout regimen would help. It could also provide you with an opportunity to observe measurable improvements in your performance. Interesting reading on both subjects can be found in Born to Run, and The China Study. It wouldn't resolve your condition, but it might help you feel better in every other arena, and thus make it easier to live with.

You might find the subject of Neuroplasticity interesting, which is to say the brain's propensity to develop new neural connections throughout your lifetime. There is a new book, which I have not read, about using the new concepts to reacquire lost brain function from trauma. I do not see why steady erosion from psychosis should be different. And NYT ran an article concerning using a memory game daily to improve your intelligence.

None of these things are guaranteed to help, but they might, and even if they don't, at least you are taking deliberate steps to improve yourself. That is no mean thing for anyone, condition or no.

The book: Neuroplasticity and Rehabilitation, by Sarah A. Raskin.

NYT articles: Search "can you make yourself smarter" and "how exercise could lead to a better brain" on Google. The articles should come up.

My brother has been diagnosed with a severe case of bipolar disorder. His life has been irretrievably destroyed by it, and needlessly. I say to you that you may be afflicted, but you are far from helpless.

 

[meldraft]

Here's a few points you might want to consider:

First, I would suggest that you first find a stress-free (part-time) job (any job). I believe that the feeling of accomplishment you will get by making your way through life like everyone else would be very beneficial to you. Once you establish a certain equilibrium in your life, then you can start changing it in small ways to make it better. From what I can tell, what you really lack is equilibrium.

Second, have you considered private tutoring? It pays pretty well, and usually your students are much more interested in what you're teaching than the average HS students. An even more rewarding case would be tutoring undergraduate students. These guys are often much more interesting to instruct. It would also solidify your understanding of the subjects if you ever decide to complete that PhD.

Third, lay out a plan. You say that you want to be a professor, I say go for it. You don't have to (or can't) do it hard (like most of us), so do it smart (you say you're a pretty smart guy ). If the problem is that you can't handle the pressure of a PhD, then do it more slowly. Get a part time job to sustain yourself and take your time doing it, just for your own satisfaction. If abstract mathematics is too hard for you right now, consider something less taxing on your mind, for instance some engineering application (highly depends on the case, but you get my drift). Once you have your degree in some years, it's possible that you can replace your part-time job with something you enjoy much more. Again, lay out a plan. Planning is much more effective than medication in order to reduce stress.

Other things you could do could involve working at home. My first suggestion would have been to start your own business, maybe writing software or something similar (if you have programming skills), but this is a very stressful way of living. Instead, how about writing apps and selling them as a way to complement your income? As long as you don't have a boss, deadlines, and having to worry about how to survive, I can imagine one can work in a pretty stress-free fashion . If it takes off at some point, you could do it full time.

Also, I believe working long and hard in academia is overrated. I spent the last 1.5 years working ~12 hours a day and I found that my brain simply stopped working effectively very early in the process. I started forgetting things and taking far too long to do math, which simply lead to working even more. I now try to work a healthy 7-8 hours a day and it works much better.

My last advice for you would be not to be afraid of life. You suffered a great loss, but it's going to be the end of your dreams only if you let it. Many of us are stuck in low-paying jobs that we don't fully enjoy. But by doing so, we also make our way through life until something better comes along, making ourselves more employable in the process. Trust me, as much as you would dislike "waited tables for 2 years" or "student tutor for 2 years" in your CV, it still beats the hell out of "unemployed for 2 years".

So lay out a plan to make your dreams happen (even adjust them accordingly), take it easy, and try to enjoy life as much as you can. You may get your PhD at 37 instead of 27, but you can still get it. We are young, and we tend to think that when something very bad happens it is the end of the world, but we are wrong. There is a full life to be lived, and we must each live it with what we've got. It is really unfortunate that you have such difficulties, but try to take comfort in the fact that you are not alone. Everyone has their cross to carry. I knew a guy doing his PhD. He was really great at it, but then his father died and he had to give it all up to run the family business and support his 4 brothers and sisters.

Bottom-line, we always tend to want something ideal out of life, but please take comfort in the fact that most people really have trouble realising their dreams in the end