Non conservative electric field and scalar potential V

In summary, the conversation discusses the concept of conservative fields and how it applies to electric circuits. It is noted that Kirchoff's laws are approximations that break down in certain circumstances. The derivation of Kirchoff's voltage law from Maxwell's equations is explained, showing that for small circuits and low frequencies, the field can be considered conservative. However, in the case of steady state DC current, the E field inside the wires is conservative while the E field inside the battery is nonconservative, resulting in a nonzero line integral.
  • #1
fog37
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Hello forum.

The electric field generated by a changing magnetic field is not conservative. A conservative field is a field with the following features:
  • the closed line integral is zero
  • the line integral from point A to point B is the same no matter the path followed to go from A to B
  • it is the (negative) gradient of a scalar potential field V
The steady state E field inside DC current carrying wires should be an example of a non conservative field. Any time-varying E field should also be non conservative. That said, the line integral of a non conservative field is still set equal to a potential difference between two spatial points, as it is done in electric circuits...Why? If the field is not conservative, then we should not be able to use the concept of scalar potential...

thanks,
fog37
 
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  • #2
Great observation! It's important to remember that Kirchoff's laws are only approximations that break down in certain circumstances. Let's derive Kirchoff's voltage law from Maxwell's equations.

I presume you know the integral form of Faraday's law: $$\oint _C \mathbf{E} \cdot d\mathbf{\ell} = -\frac{\partial}{\partial t} \iint _S \mathbf{B} \cdot d\mathbf{S}$$
Now, we can write the left side of that equation, if we lump all the circuit parameters together, as the sum of voltage drops around the loop (instead of continuous voltage drop, it's a sum of discrete voltage drops): $$\oint _C \mathbf{E} \cdot d\mathbf{\ell} = \sum V$$
In other words, we can say $$\sum V = -\frac{\partial}{\partial t} \iint _S \mathbf{B} \cdot d\mathbf{S}$$
and $$-\frac{\partial}{\partial t} \iint _S \mathbf{B} \cdot d\mathbf{S} = -\frac{\partial \Phi}{\partial t} = \frac{\partial}{\partial t} L_s i = -L_s \frac{\partial i}{\partial t}$$

This last step, if you'll notice, is because by definition, the inductance ##L## is the ratio of the magnetic flux to the given current ##\Phi/I##. So we have
$$\sum V = -L_s \frac{\partial i}{\partial t}$$
Where ##L_s## is the stray inductance of the circuit (this is geometry-dependent). For small circuits and low frequencies, the right side of this equation is very small, so we can just say ##\sum V = \oint _C \mathbf{E} \cdot d\mathbf{\ell} = 0##. This is Kirchoff's voltage law, as you know, and this condition implies the field is conservative (note that it really isn't--it's just close).

Reference: Balanis, Advanced Engineering Electromagnetics
 
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  • #3
Thanks axmls.

But in the DC case (steady state current), the magnetic field is time-invariant and the rate of change of the current is perfectly zero.

So it seems that the E field inside the wires is conservative but the E field inside the battery is nonconservative and gives rise to a nonzero line integral.

The total line integral is the sum of the line integral within the battery and the line integral along the close metal path formed by the wires and the result is nonzero...
 

Related to Non conservative electric field and scalar potential V

1. What is a non-conservative electric field?

A non-conservative electric field is an electric field that does not conserve energy, meaning that the work done by the field on a charge depends on the path taken by the charge. This is in contrast to a conservative electric field, where the work done is independent of the path.

2. How is a non-conservative electric field different from a conservative electric field?

A conservative electric field is characterized by being path-independent, meaning that the work done by the field on a charge is the same regardless of the path taken. In contrast, a non-conservative electric field is path-dependent, meaning that the work done on a charge depends on the path taken.

3. What is the relationship between a non-conservative electric field and scalar potential?

A non-conservative electric field can be described by a scalar potential, which is a mathematical function that assigns a value to every point in space. The gradient of this scalar potential, also known as the electric potential, gives the non-conservative electric field at any point in space.

4. How is the scalar potential V related to the electric potential energy U?

The scalar potential V is related to the electric potential energy U by the equation U = qV, where q is the charge experiencing the electric field. This means that the electric potential energy of a charge in a non-conservative electric field is equal to the charge multiplied by the scalar potential at that point.

5. Can a non-conservative electric field exist in a vacuum?

Yes, a non-conservative electric field can exist in a vacuum. This is because the presence of a non-conservative electric field does not require any physical medium, unlike some other types of fields such as gravitational fields. As long as there is a distribution of electric charges, a non-conservative electric field can exist in a vacuum.

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