Physics of Water in the Closed System of the Great Pyramid

[Iaretheegyptian]

Hello,
I am working on a theory for a Great Pyramid power plant and I need some help understanding if my current hypothesis is even possible and how to calculate how much water will fill the upper structure. I believe the water system to work as follows: An aqueduct delivers a steady flow of water to the entrance of the Great Pyramid. That water travels down the descending passageway and reaches the subterranean chamber. Water fills this chamber, starting with the pit, until saturated. Water has no more room to go and begins to push back against the descending passageway. Because of the weight of the water rushing down the descending passageway, the water pushes up the well-shaft as it is the path of lesser resistance.

Now, I need to know if water would indeed push up the well-shaft, and I need to know how high up the well-shaft the water could go. Ideally, I am hoping to prove that this would fill the king's chamber with water(either mostly or fully). Its worth noting that I am assuming that the top of the well-shaft is blocked off, that the masonry blocking the grotto is not original, that the well-shaft was mostly full of porous material(the semi-compact sand and gravel of the grotto) and that the water is meant to flow through the porous material making up the grotto. I also believe this porous material leads to a semi-vertical/vertical shaft of porous material in the north eastern corner of the kings chamber. Further I believe that shaft also is connected to the queens chamber on the alcove side. I am hoping that this porous material will work as a salt retainer, facilitating the filling of the queens/kings chamber with ionized water then depositing the salt within the chamber when the system is shut down and allowed to empty.

So what I guess I'm looking for is as follows: a)If someone can confirm that water should indeed be pushed up the well-shaft
b)help understanding how to calculate the velocity of water, both down the descending passageway, and up the well-shaft

I'm including some dimensions here if it will help better determine the answer to whether or not my idea is feasible. The descending passageway travels at a 26 degree angle. It is ~1.1m wide, ~1.2m tall, and has a length of ~105m. I am not sure how much volume of water the subterranean chamber can hold, nor do I know the rate in which water will empty out of the pit in the subterranean chamber. I am also adding a diagram to illustrate the well-shaft position as well as the subterranean chamber. For scale, the distance from the well-shaft to the bottom of the descending passageway is 3.2m.

[Link redacted by the Mentors]

 

[jrmichler]

Some basic laws of physics applying to generating power from water. These laws are absolute, they cannot be violated:

Water can flow only downhill. It can be pushed, thrown, or carried uphill, but that takes external power.
Water can only generate power when it moves downward, and pulls/pushes some sort of mechanical device.

It takes more power to move a given amount of water up than is generated by that water moving back down to the starting level.

If you pour water from a source higher than the chamber into a closed chamber, the chamber will fill until it is full. Assuming, of course, that the water is pouring in faster than it leaks out. Also assuming that it is not air locked.

In the book The Ancient Engineers, by L. Sprague De Camp, the earliest mention of generating power from moving water is a water wheel invented by Philon of Byzantium. He lived from 280 BC to 220 BC. The Great Pyramid was built about 2600 BC. The earliest copyright date in that book is 1960, and it is still in print: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0345482875/?tag=pfamazon01-20. Recommended as a good read.

Your idea fails by chronology. Your idea fails because pouring water into something does not generate power. Power is generated only by using falling water to move something, and the Great Pyramid does not contain anything moved by falling water.

If you want to know more about water flows, start by looking for a book with Fluid Dynamics in the title. Amazon has a lot of them. The subject is too large for an internet post.

 

[jedishrfu]

To prove this to yourself you could use a simple garden hose and and a funnel:
- prime the hose with water
- raise both hose ends so that they are 3 ft off of the ground.
- use the funnel to pour water into one end of the hose
- note how much water comes out the other end

Note you may have to tape the funnel to the hose end and you will need to make the other end level with the top of the funnel since it is now a part of the hose.

No appreciable flow of water if any will come out the other end.

Some folks use a similar technique to empty above ground swimming pools. They prime the hose put one end in the pool and the other end somewhere lower in the yard.

Gravity will pull the water out of the lower hose end and the water will continue to flow from the pool end, up over the pool wall, and then downward exiting out the lower hose end and emptying the pool.

 

[Iaretheegyptian]

Some basic laws of physics applying to generating power from water. These laws are absolute, they cannot be violated:

Water can flow only downhill. It can be pushed, thrown, or carried uphill, but that takes external power.
Water can only generate power when it moves downward, and pulls/pushes some sort of mechanical device.

It takes more power to move a given amount of water up than is generated by that water moving back down to the starting level.

If you pour water from a source higher than the chamber into a closed chamber, the chamber will fill until it is full. Assuming, of course, that the water is pouring in faster than it leaks out. Also assuming that it is not air locked.

In the book The Ancient Engineers, by L. Sprague De Camp, the earliest mention of generating power from moving water is a water wheel invented by Philon of Byzantium. He lived from 280 BC to 220 BC. The Great Pyramid was built about 2600 BC. The earliest copyright date in that book is 1960, and it is still in print: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0345482875/?tag=pfamazon01-20. Recommended as a good read.

Your idea fails by chronology. Your idea fails because pouring water into something does not generate power. Power is generated only by using falling water to move something, and the Great Pyramid does not contain anything moved by falling water.

If you want to know more about water flows, start by looking for a book with Fluid Dynamics in the title. Amazon has a lot of them. The subject is too large for an internet post.

I appreciate the reply. I guess I'm a little confused by fluid dynamics. It seemed logical to me that water would flow up the well-shaft because there is ~100 cubic meters of water(100,000kg) coming down the descending passageway, so it would take less force for the water to push itself up the well-shaft then it would to stop the ~100,000kg coming down the descending passageway.

Next, flowing water this way down the descending passageway would in fact generate electricity without any moving parts(outside the water). The reason being, is that the stone the water is contacting/flowing on has a high quartz content. Quartz is piezoelectric so the mechanical force of the water generates electricity. If I could calculate how much force the water is exerting I could calculate the amount of electricity generated via piezoelectricity.

I've been assuming fresh water input(from the Nile), but changing to saltwater would allow for the water to be electrified within the lower chambers/passageways. Also, its worth noting that free electrons will be dumped by the vibrating limestone, into the water. This is because of the presence of iron oxide in the limestone. When electrons hit the iron oxide, the electrons jump sporadically to avoid it. Assuming that building electrical charge within the water would somehow help with the moving of the water upwards, changing to a saltwater input should be simple enough.

I'm not really concerned about the chronology. I am operating under the premise that certain Giza structures are much older than what Egyptologists think. Like, older than the last African Humid Period. That would mean that the Old-Kingdom Pharaohs were actually like archeologists, restoring structures which were already thousands of years old to them. But again, I don't really care to argue the history side of it here.

I suppose I may need to pick up some books on Fluid Mechanics though. Certainly couldn't hurt considering I know basically nothing. Maybe I should get some math books too. I haven't done super advanced math in over ten years. I get the feeling I will neck deep in formulae just to calculate the velocity of water within this system...

 

[Iaretheegyptian]

To prove this to yourself you could use a simple garden hose and and a funnel:
- prime the hose with water
- raise both hose ends so that they are 3 ft off of the ground.
- use the funnel to pour water into one end of the hose
- note how much water comes out the other end

Note you may have to tape the funnel to the hose end and you will need to make the other end level with the top of the funnel since it is now a part of the hose.

No appreciable flow of water if any will come out the other end.

Some folks use a similar technique to empty above ground swimming pools. They prime the hose put one end in the pool and the other end somewhere lower in the yard.

Gravity will pull the water out of the lower hose end and the water will continue to flow from the pool end, up over the pool wall, and then downward exiting out the lower hose end and emptying the pool.

I fail to see how this garden hose example equates to the same thing. The volume of the descending passageway is greater than that of the well-shaft(especially if the well-shaft is filled with sand/gravel). Also it doesn't seem to account for the speed the water would gain flowing down the descending passageway.

You have given me an idea though. Assuming I was able to construct a scale model of the passages and chambers, the water flow within the scale model should be an accurate representation of what would occur in the Great Pyramid. Right?

 

[Tom.G]

Assuming I was able to construct a scale model of the passages and chambers, the water flow within the scale model should be an accurate representation of what would occur in the Great Pyramid. Right?

That is a very good approach! If unsure about a system, a model is often extremely informative.

Please get back to us on the results.

 

[renormalize]

Next, flowing water this way down the descending passageway would in fact generate electricity without any moving parts(outside the water). The reason being, is that the stone the water is contacting/flowing on has a high quartz content. Quartz is piezoelectric so the mechanical force of the water generates electricity. If I could calculate how much force the water is exerting I could calculate the amount of electricity generated via piezoelectricity.

Can you cite a peer-reviewed source for this claim?

It's true that "piezoelectric energy harvesting" from sources such as road traffic vibrations or induced-vortices in water flow has been investigated. Regarding the latter, a review article from 2007 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1088/0964-1726/16/3/R01) even states:

"...the concept of combining multiple harvesters to create a larger scale generator was investigated. It was found that 100 000 small cantilever elements could be arranged in 1 m^2. Expanding even further, a 3D array of elements placed in a river could deliver approximately 68 W m^−3 of power. State-of-the-art wind turbines have a power density of about 34 W m^−3; thus (electric) energy generation by piezoelectric elements submerged in a river is quite feasible and could show significant improvements above wind turbine technology."

But please note that this approach envisions coupling turbulent water to large numbers of engineered piezoelectric devices that are indeed moving (oscillating). In your scenario, how does water simply flowing past piezoelectric rocks generate electricity? (And where do you connect the wires?)

 

[Iaretheegyptian]

That is a very good approach! If unsure about a system, a model is often extremely informative.

Please get back to us on the results.

I was lucky enough to stumble upon a "Holy Grail" type website that seems to adequately explore the idea of flowing water down the descending passageway(I guess finding the right google keywords is pretty important). The guy behind the site, John Cadman, has made multiple working models for how the pyramid could function as a ram pump. He also has a YouTube channel, listed under his name, where we get to see videos of his models in action. Through his modeling, he discovered that the subterranean chamber forms a pulse wave generator. This is an element I didn't know I needed, but I'm definitely glad that's how it works.

Since one of John Cadman's model proved that water could be pumped up through superstructure into the upper chambers, I guess that answers my original question of whether or not it was even possible. Going forward, it seems a good course of action would be to reach out to John and see if he can answer the my 2nd question about how much force the water generates.

 

[jedishrfu]

If his model is using a pump to push water into the model then or course the water level can rise higher in the chambers than the entrance. However when pumping stops, without the pressure, the water will re-level in the chambers and some water will come back out.

Many US towns utilize a similar approach pumping water into water towers at night in preparation for the coming day where water usage is higher draining the system and positive water pressure needs to be maintained.

 

[Mark44]

I was lucky enough to stumble upon a "Holy Grail" type website that seems to adequately explore the idea of flowing water down the descending passageway(I guess finding the right google keywords is pretty important). The guy behind the site, John Cadman, has made multiple working models for how the pyramid could function as a ram pump.

I did a search for John Cadman, and found a bio here: http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Cadman.htm.

He talks about a working prototype, but gives no details about it. I didn't look for his Youtube channel, however.

He also mentions Richard Noone in his bio, who wrote a book titled "5/5/2000" back in 1997. In the book, which is still available at Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0609800671/?tag=pfamazon01-20), Noone claims that because Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn will be aligned with Earth for the first time in 6,000 years, the polar ice caps will melt and submerge large areas of the Earth.

Obviously this didn't happen, so one can reasonably conclude that Noone is a crackpot, which reflects somewhat poorly on Cadman, who references Noone in his (Cadman's) bio.

 

[Mark44]

Next, flowing water this way down the descending passageway would in fact generate electricity without any moving parts(outside the water). The reason being, is that the stone the water is contacting/flowing on has a high quartz content. Quartz is piezoelectric so the mechanical force of the water generates electricity. If I could calculate how much force the water is exerting I could calculate the amount of electricity generated via piezoelectricity.

I don't think this makes any sense. Consider water running off a roof into a gutter, and then down an angled downspout. As long as the water can exit the downspout, it won't be exerting much pressure on the sides of the downspout. I suspect that whatever force the water exerts on the passageway would be so small as to be unmeasurable.

Also, its worth noting that free electrons will be dumped by the vibrating limestone, into the water. This is because of the presence of iron oxide in the limestone. When electrons hit the iron oxide, the electrons jump sporadically to avoid it. Assuming that building electrical charge within the water would somehow help with the moving of the water upwards, changing to a saltwater input should be simple enough.

It's hard for me to imagine that the limestone will be vibrating much at all, let alone that the electrical charge would help move the water.

I suppose I may need to pick up some books on Fluid Mechanics though. Certainly couldn't hurt considering I know basically nothing. Maybe I should get some math books too. I haven't done super advanced math in over ten years. I get the feeling I will neck deep in formulae just to calculate the velocity of water within this system...

You're going to need the math books first if you want to tackle fluid dynamics. What sort of "super advanced math" did you work with ten years ago?

 

[berkeman]

Next, flowing water this way down the descending passageway would in fact generate electricity without any moving parts(outside the water). The reason being, is that the stone the water is contacting/flowing on has a high quartz content. Quartz is piezoelectric so the mechanical force of the water generates electricity. If I could calculate how much force the water is exerting I could calculate the amount of electricity generated via piezoelectricity.

If there is any piezo effect, you need electrodes on the piezo structure to transfer the (tiny) AC current to some sort of processing circuit.

Also, its worth noting that free electrons will be dumped by the vibrating limestone, into the water. This is because of the presence of iron oxide in the limestone. When electrons hit the iron oxide, the electrons jump sporadically to avoid it.

This sounds like complete nonsense to me. What is your background in Solid State Physics, Electrochemistry and Electrical Engineering?

 

[Iaretheegyptian]

I did a search for John Cadman, and found a bio here: [Link redacted by the Mentors]

He talks about a working prototype, but gives no details about it. I didn't look for his Youtube channel, however.

He also mentions Richard Noone in his bio, who wrote a book titled "5/5/2000" back in 1997. In the book, which is still available at Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0609800671/?tag=pfamazon01-20), Noone claims that because Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn will be aligned with Earth for the first time in 6,000 years, the polar ice caps will melt and submerge large areas of the Earth.

Obviously this didn't happen, so one can reasonably conclude that Noone is a crackpot, which reflects somewhat poorly on Cadman, who references Noone in his (Cadman's) bio.

Yeah he probably is a crackpot. Genius and insanity tend to walk a thin line, hand in hand. I realize now that I forgot to link his site [Link redacted by the Mentors] Guess he really loves his dogs.

Replying to you other guys about the piezoelectric effect resulting from the flowing water down the descending passageway; it is not a direct piezoelectric effect(crystal lattice deformation) but an anomalous one. Link to peer-reviewed paper on the subject: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Another-experiment-with-the-limestone-the-load-electric-signal-load-time-derivative_fig3_50301589
This should pair nicely with a pulse wave generator

On the subject of electrodes, my notes are currently a bit scattered. Also I wasn't here to present the whole of my hypothesis, but if you are familiar with the work of Chris Dunn then you'll get the idea.

 

[Mark44]

Also I wasn't here to present the whole of my hypothesis, but if you are familiar with the work of Chris Dunn then you'll get the idea.

I'm not, but I looked him up and found his website: [Link redacted by the Mentors]
One of his books, "The Giza Power Plant," has these chapters listed, among others:

• The Giza Power Plant
• The Mighty Crystal
• An Amazing Maser

Color me very skeptical...

 

[berkeman]

Thread closed for Moderation...

 

[berkeman]

After a Mentor discussion, this thread will remain closed. @Iaretheegyptian -- please check your PMs tomorrow.