Solving Confusion About Parallelograms in Curved Spacetime

In summary, Feynman's description of how to see that spacetime is curved is as follows: you draw a rectangle in spacetime, and the distance between the two corners of the rectangle is proportional to the square of the distance between the two points in space. However, this method doesn't work in a torsion-free space, because the opposite corners of the rectangle should touch up to order ε³.
  • #1
Sonderval
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One way to see that spacetime is curved is to try and draw a "rectangle" in spacetime (see the figure in the Feynman lectures, ch 42.7): If I wait for 100 seconds and then move upwards on earth, I end up at a different point in spacetime than when I first move upwards and then wait for 100 seconds.
As long as height changes are small, the time dilation on Earth is linear with height,
[tex] t(h) = (1+gh/c^2) t(0)[/tex]
The total distance in time between the two points I reach using the two different ways is thus t(h)-t(0), proportional to the time I wait (waiting 200s instead of 100 will double it) and proportional to the height.
This means that if I draw a small "square" with edges in the r- and t-direction and edgelength ε, the distance of the two end points to reach the opposite corner is proportional to ε².

However, both Penroses Road to reality (ch 14) as well as this page:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/gr/torsion.html
state that in a torsion-free space, the opposite corners of a square constructed this way should touch up to order ε³.

So, obviously, I'm making a stupid mistake. Can anybody tell me where it is?
 
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  • #2
Sonderval said:
One way to see that spacetime is curved is to try and draw a "rectangle" in spacetime (see the figure in the Feynman lectures, ch 42.7): If I wait for 100 seconds and then move upwards on earth, I end up at a different point in spacetime than when I first move upwards and then wait for 100 seconds.
As long as height changes are small, the time dilation on Earth is linear with height,
[tex] t(h) = (1+gh/c^2) t(0)[/tex]
The total distance in time between the two points I reach using the two different ways is thus t(h)-t(0), proportional to the time I wait (waiting 200s instead of 100 will double it) and proportional to the height.
This means that if I draw a small "square" with edges in the r- and t-direction and edgelength ε, the distance of the two end points to reach the opposite corner is proportional to ε².

However, both Penroses Road to reality (ch 14) as well as this page:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/gr/torsion.html
state that in a torsion-free space, the opposite corners of a square constructed this way should touch up to order ε³.

So, obviously, I'm making a stupid mistake. Can anybody tell me where it is?

I'm not confident that this is the complete answer, but I think that John Baez is talking about making a rectangle whose sides are geodesics. In contrast, it sounds like Feynman is talking about a rectangle whose sides are not geodesics. If you wait 100 seconds at a constant height [itex]h[/itex] above the surface of the Earth, then you aren't following a geodesic. So that's not following a geodesic.

On the other hand, the reason I'm not confident in my answer is because my first intuition would be that the procedure that Feynman is talking about would give a coordinate-dependent quantity, not spacetime curvature.
 
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  • #3
@stevendaryl
Good idea, I did not think of that.
I'm not sure it helps, though. Let's replace the vertical (time-oriented) edges of the square with lightcones (null geodesics), and the horizontal part with the world line of a free-falling particle that is initially at rest. (Or am I not allowed to use null geodesics here because they have zero four-length? Alternatively, I could use worldlines of a particle moving with v close to c.)
The distance in free falling for the horizontal part is proportional to t². Both horizontal lines will "fall" by the same amount of r=(1/2)gt², so this does not seem to change their distance.
I've tried to calculate this using a square with side lengths 1ns and 0,3m (to have meaningful ε).
The vertical fall is then 5E-18m; and this gets divided by c² in the formula for the time dilation I wrote down above; so I do not see how this can compensate for the quadratic dependence.
 

1. What is a parallelogram in curved spacetime?

A parallelogram in curved spacetime is a geometric shape that is formed by connecting four points in a curved spacetime. It is similar to a traditional parallelogram in Euclidean geometry, but takes into account the curvature of spacetime, which is a fundamental concept in Einstein's theory of general relativity.

2. How is a parallelogram different in curved spacetime compared to traditional geometry?

In traditional geometry, a parallelogram has four sides that are straight lines and opposite sides are parallel. However, in curved spacetime, the sides of a parallelogram are not necessarily straight and may appear curved due to the curvature of spacetime. Additionally, opposite sides may not be parallel due to the effects of gravity.

3. What is the significance of understanding parallelograms in curved spacetime?

Understanding parallelograms in curved spacetime is important for understanding the effects of gravity on objects and the behavior of light in the universe. It is also crucial for accurately modeling and predicting the motion of objects in space, such as planets and stars.

4. How can we solve confusion about parallelograms in curved spacetime?

One way to solve confusion about parallelograms in curved spacetime is to first have a strong understanding of traditional geometry and then build upon that knowledge with an understanding of the principles of general relativity. It may also be helpful to use visual aids and mathematical equations to illustrate the concepts.

5. Are there real-life applications of understanding parallelograms in curved spacetime?

Yes, there are many real-life applications of understanding parallelograms in curved spacetime. For example, GPS systems use general relativity to adjust for the curvature of spacetime in order to accurately calculate locations on Earth. This understanding is also crucial for space exploration and the study of the universe.

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