- #36
ag123
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the calcs are uploaded in the jupyter notebook
https://www.kaggle.com/ag1235/flywheel
shared publicly
https://www.kaggle.com/ag1235/flywheel
shared publicly
I'm puzzled by these equations. I presume all the terms are power (in Watts.)ag123 said:the motor equation in this model is:
$$ i^2 R + K i^2 \omega = { I \omega ^ 2 \over 2 } + \text{heat from coil resistance} + \text{heat from mechanical friction} \ldots ( 1 )$$
$$ \text{where i is current, R is resistance, K is the inductance of the motor!} \\
\omega \text{ angular velocity, I is moment of inertia ... taken over 1 second. i.e. energy} $$
$$ K i^2 \omega = { I \omega ^ 2 \over 2 } \ldots ( 2 )$$
the LHS is energy stored in the inductor and RHS is actually the energy stored in the flywheel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel
heat from coil resistance + heat from mechanical friction is lumped into the i^2 . R resistance term in (1)
mostly only (2) is used as i^2.R is simply heat. due to w being present on both sides of the equation. the energy on the LHS is 1st calculated and used to calculate the flywheel energy on the RHS. ...
Certainly you are right about more energy going into ##i^2R## heating in the windings at low ω, because the current is inversely proportional to ω. Equally the torque will correlate with ##i^2R## heating, because torque is proportional to current.interestingly, if there is more heat generated, it would imply a lower w, and power = torque . w
which means torque would go up. But the catch with this model is w cannot be 0 or torque -> infinity.
It models stall torque if you do it right.i.e. this still can't model the stall torque. perhaps the stall torque is some psuedo w, i.e. w is some rpm when nothing is turning at all, real world is non-linear (plastic as magnetic flux is limited). so in the mean time, i'd just take a clip and hold the motor to measure the stall torque, no flywheel lol
Merlin3189 said:I'm puzzled by these equations. I presume all the terms are power (in Watts.)
I don't know what inductance we're talking about here, but I don't understand why the energy stored in it should be multipled by ω to get a power.
If the LHS is the electrical input power, I'd have thought the two terms would be the ## i^2 R \ \text{ and } iV_{bemf} \ \ \ ## being the power dissipated in winding resistance and the power used in the motor effect.
The ## iV_{bemf} \ \ \text{ term would be equal to }\ \ i K ω \ \ ## where K was the motor's back emf voltage constant in Volt per radian per second, rather than an inductance. (NB. you may come across various forms of voltage constant in common use, including an inverse , rpm per volt.)
Merlin3189 said:Certainly you are right about more energy going into ##i^2R## heating in the windings at low ω, because the current is inversely proportional to ω. Equally the torque will correlate with ##i^2R## heating, because torque is proportional to current.
But you seem to be going back to a constant power output.
Output Power = torque x ω is ok, but when ω goes to zero, so does power output.
Even if you had constant power input, at ω=0, all that power would simply go to the ##i^2R## term and more heat is generated.
Nowhere does torque or current go to infinity. Max current and max torque would ideally occur at ω=0, though heating of the windings raising their resistance would then reduce them a bit.
Merlin3189 said:It models stall torque if you do it right.
If you measure stall torque, it doesn't matter whether there is a flywheel or not - it's not moving.
If you want to measure stall torque, you don't need to do it at operating voltage stall current, risking overheating the motor, causing damage and incorrect reading due to changed resistance. You can measure the stall torque at a lower current, by using a lower voltage supply (I'd say below half of stall current at working voltage.) You know torque is zero at zero current. Since torque is proportional to current, you can extrapolate to the torque at calculated stall current for the operating voltage.
The commutator let's you down at low speeds but a brushless motor (mentioned only once above) has better low speed torque.jbriggs444 said:You have failed to understand post #2. DC motors are not 100% efficient. They do not go to infinite torque at zero RPM. They do not slip. They do not stall. They simply provide non-zero torque at zero RPM.
That's the point for me. If angular velocity is zero, then power is zero whatever the torque. So you can draw no conclusion about torque. In fact that's how stall torque is defined, the torque when angular velocity is zero.ag123 said:placing the angular velocity as zero in the expression gives absurd infinite torque due to the use of the expression power = torque x angular velocity.
So the equation actually equates energy in each second, otherwise known as power.ag123 said:the equation actually equates energy
LHS is the electrical analogs of energy in each second, RHS is the physical mechanical (energy stored in spinning disc) and heat energy terms
I would quibble with your definition of back emf here.ag123 said:i initially had a hard time trying to figure out the analogs of the motor energy that translates to actual torque. it turns out that is the back emf, so the motor energy modeled as an inductor.
$$ \text{back emf} = L\,\frac{d i}{d t} = L i \omega\\ \text{power} = i v = L i^2 \omega $$
this models the energy stored in the motor 'inductor' for the particular second.
Merlin3189 said:I would quibble with your definition of back emf here.
Back emf is not due (mainly) to inductance. The reason that back emf is proportional to speed, is that is caused by the dynamo effect of wires (the rotor) moving in a magnetic field. That gives you a relation
## v ∝ ω \ \text{ or }\ v=Kω \ \ ## where K is the (operating voltage)/(ideal free-running speed).
You can work K out from windings and field flux, but you'd need to know details of motor innards to do that. Usually we (the users) either get it from data sheets or determine it by experiment.
There may be some inductance in the rotor windings and I guess that's one reason our simple model is a bit rough and ready.
...
The useful power input is that represented by current x dynamo back emf.
I have some sympathy with your difficulty in applying these relations. I've failed to come up with a function for ω(t) and have been hoping one of the mathologers here might mention it just to show us how clever they are.
I do have my own numerical simulations (very rough - in Excel) with a bit of inertia to give me an ω - t graph.
One thing it showed me immediately, something I should have realized at the start, is that the flywheel never reaches steady speed. It approaches it asymptotically. So you may have trouble timing it from 0 to steady state speed. You'd do better to pick a value around 60% and time it to that.
Now that I've satisfied myself that the ideas I've been pushing do indeed give me the textbook graphs, I think my next step is a few experiments with some nice little motors I have, to see if I can get the simulations to match up with reality.