- #36
Zero
The problem, of course, is that this isn't a military situation, simply because the Palestinians have no army. It is a police action, and there is no way to justify a %40 civilian fatality in a police action.
Or, put another way...would you put trust in a doctor who killed 40% of his patients?
Originally posted by Hurkyl
If the doctor was a specialist in treating a condition with a 60% fatality rate, then most definitely.
Nice rationalization, great way to dodge the question.
Would you think it is reasonable for police to shoot down 2 bystanders for every 3 criminals, no matter how dangerous those criminals are?
Originally posted by Hurkyl
However, I don't know that 40% noncombatant fatalities is an unreasonable rate for military occupation of a state with a large, actively resisting terrorist organization.
Again, it's all about the context. For an extremely obvious counterexample, suppose 3 criminals are standing in the middle of a large dense crowd and start randomly firing AK-47s. Can you argue that the accidental killing of 2 bystanders in a hasty effort to eliminate the criminals, thus minimizing casualties, would be unreasonable?
At the very least, it should make you question their presence and tactics. If this happened in America, there would be outrage, not all these attempts to justify Israelis shooting chldren.
Yes. That would explain a LOT.Originally posted by Zero
Would it help if I dressed like Barney the Purple %@$#& Dinosaur?
Originally posted by russ_watters
Yes. That would explain a LOT.
Originally posted by Hurkyl
Let me make sure my example was clear; the criminals are killing the civilians in the crowd. Every second the military waits while waiting for that perfect shot is another few civilians who get killed. Okay to take the fast shot and kill 2 civilians in the process, or should you wait until you have a clean shot (and the criminals have killed 6 or 8 more civilians)
I presume their tactics are neither good nor bad; I don't have sufficient information to make such a decision. If it happened in America, there probably would be outrage, but I would still refrain from forming an opinion until I thought I had enough information to do so.
Originally posted by Hurkyl
I presume their tactics are neither good nor bad; I don't have sufficient information to make such a decision. If it happened in America, there probably would be outrage, but I would still refrain from forming an opinion until I thought I had enough information to do so.
Your example is so wrong as to be laughable.
Would you think it is reasonable for police to shoot down 2 bystanders for every 3 criminals, no matter how dangerous those criminals are?
You have 'sufficient information', based on the graphs, to support Israel
and yet my very simple '40%' stumps you, coincidentally something that paints Israel in a bad light. Well, I am supposed to believe it is coincidence, right?
Originally posted by drag
Greetings !
Since making direct attacks at members is
prohibited I'd just like to advise the
following: If you see a member who posts
racist and hatefull messages all the time
full of many lies and ussualy also empty
of any real information except provocative
statements confirming the above extreme views,
why even read or answer this pathetic BS ?
It's a free forum - let that person throw
out the grabage until even he becomes sick
of himself and in the meantime discuss
the subject in a civilized manner with
people who are willing to do just that.
Just a suggestion...
Live long and prosper.
Originally posted by Hurkyl
(incidentally, the other statistic is the 80% Israeli noncombatant fatality rate)
why even read or answer this pathetic BS ?
Originally posted by drag
Greetings !
Since making direct attacks at members is
prohibited I'd just like to advise the
following: If you see a member who posts
racist and hatefull messages all the time
full of many lies and ussualy also empty
of any real information except provocative
statements confirming the above extreme views,
why even read or answer this pathetic BS ?
It's a free forum - let that person throw
out the grabage until even he becomes sick
of himself and in the meantime discuss
the subject in a civilized manner with
people who are willing to do just that.
Just a suggestion...
Live long and prosper.
It was a general statement as you can see,Originally posted by Zero
Hmmm...pointing out that Israelis aren't
showing proper restraint in the use of
force is racism?
O.K. , if it's worth you time.Originally posted by Hurkyl
Whether or not I expect the other side to argue
their point intelligently, I find this type
of discussion helps me develop greater
precision in my arguments and thought
processes. While I don't expect to change the
other person's mind, the practice is still
useful for other domains, it helps me be honest
with myself about how much I know and don't
know, and allows me to better recognize more
sophisticated propaganda.
If they are only doing right 60% of the time, we need to examine them more closely. No one else, it seems, wants to examine, just rationalize.
Yeras ago Israel gave them all their rights,Originally posted by schwarzchildradius
2 Israel grants them basic human rights.
Originally posted by drag
Greetings !
Yeras ago Israel gave them all their rights,
it gave them money and arms, it supported its
government and offered them a country. But, the
ex-terrorists - the leaders with whom there
were negotiations decided they don't want that -
they want everything. If the palestinians were
to promise peace and it was known ahead that
they will really keep their word, not just for
a few hours after the promise, they'd have a
country in a couple of days with all the
general benefits and additions involved. They
just don't get it, never did so far.
Live long and prosper.
A small group ?Originally posted by Zero
Something here...the idea that ALL
Palestinians should pay for the
actions of a small group of radical
criminal killers...maybe that is the
most unfair aspect of it all.
Originally posted by Zero
Hmmmm...does declaring one side 'morally superior' make it perfect? I think the term "morally superior" is so fundamentally flawed in it's typical usage that it really can have no realistic place in the majority of debates of the palestine and Israel issue. Or can we safely deplore the actions of several different sides, for different reasons. We should be able to, however, even in such a multi-faceted issue there are certainly certain actions that can and should be deplored but who's responsibility must be sqaurely layed at the feet of those who have the capability of ending them. There are, of course, issues of this nature on all sides of the matter The Pal;estinians live under military occupation, so have a legitimate beef against Israel.This military occupation is the result of specific actions of people other then the IDF, Israeli's didn't just wake up one morning and say "oh, gee whiz, I think we should occupy the palestinian mandated land" Israeli's certainly have not eased the situation over time, but the security risk involved must also be considered, particularly when you consider the other very culpable party...those who's entire lifetime have been devoted to organized terrorism at the cost of the lives of those very people they proclaim to have an interest in benefitting. As long as the PLO, Hizbollah, Fatah and the other various groups who are not only answering to Arafat but in fact have positions within his government are active in palestine there will be no peace for the Palestinian people. Why you are so adamant in ignoring this issue, Zero, I do not understand. The current generation has grown up in horrible conditions not of their own makingNor is it of Israeli making, it is however very much a result of surrounding countries own particular interest, their willingness to sacrifice the palestinian people for those interests and it is also the making of the PLO and their own particular interest including Arafats big fat bank roll. Your blaming the other set of victims, when you should be blaming the instigators. ...seen friends and families, and sometimes their homes, destroyed by Israeli troops. You seem to forget the purposeful strategy of using civilians and their homes as military installations, placing armed men and weaponry, and firing from civilian homes, crowds of civilians as a strategy, is horrific. These factions, the palestinian "government" are very much responsible for the deaths and the destruction of the Palstinian people and their homes. Should they just accept their fate as the losers in some international struggle to fulfill Biblical prophesy? Biblical prophesy? I think a large part of the jewish Anti-Israel population are against the existence of Israel because it interferes with biblical prophesy. So maybe it also has to do with the HISTORIC past, you know history OUTSIDE of the bible? or maybe they should accept their fate as losers because a large portion of the Middle East has used them as political pawns for their own benefit? Let's not forget that, ok? mmm yeah ok.
Nope. Does it need to? Nope. It just means one side is BETTER than the other. And that's why one side gets our (the world community's) support and the other doesn't.Originally posted by Zero
Hmmmm...does declaring one side 'morally superior' make it perfect?
Geniere, that is also part of the scenario in "The Sum of All Fears." It really is a great book.I agree with that. I’m also sure that an individual Israeli soldier may seek his own vengeance, despite having orders to minimize civilian casualties.
But...but...but...I Like PINK! [b(]Originally posted by russ_watters
Kat, you make good points, but is the pink really necessary? I almost didn't read your post because of it.
Originally posted by russ_watters
Nope. Does it need to? Nope. It just means one side is BETTER than the other. And that's why one side gets our (the world community's) support and the other doesn't.
And until the Arabs deal with this simple reality, Zero, the rest of your post (which certainly does include legitimate concerns) is irrelevant.
Indeed. But, that is not the case here.Originally posted by schwarzchildradius
Terrorism doesn't happen in a vacuum, it is a
desparate response to the desparate situation
of having no voice in one's scociety.