Tesla starts "full self-driving" beta test

[mfb]

So far it seems to be limited to very few participants. It is SAE level 2 ("hands off"): The car drives itself but a human needs to watch it and needs to be able to take over at any time. Normally the phrase "self-driving" is only used for SAE levels 4 and 5 (you can sleep in the car, or you don't have to be anywhere near the car).
Unlike Tesla's "autopilot" feature (largely for highways) this new feature works on all roads, including intersections and turns.

Apparently using customers as beta testers on roads is legal in the US (discussion), which - not surprisingly - lead to criticism.
Some people are enthusiastic
Here are some more driving videos

As far as I know this is the first level 2 system for all roads that's available to customers (Waymo has a limited taxi service in Phoenix, Arizona, which is level 4 within its area). It follows Tesla's previous strategy: Use the fleet to accumulate real-life driving data quickly. If the system is good they'll be able to demonstrate that soon. The threshold is the average human driver. If the system is not good, we'll also see this soon from accident reports...

 

[berkeman]

I kind of feel like self-driving vehicles should have a notification light on somewhere, to let other drivers and pedestrians know that there may or may not be a person paying attention behind the wheel.

But Red is taken (Fire and EMS), Blue is taken (law enforcement), Yellow is taken (tow trucks, trash trucks and other non-emergency vehicles), leaving what? Any other color or strobing lights would likely be a distraction that would cause other accidents that did not have to happen.

Maybe purple?

 

[DaveE]

Level 2 has always scared me. Somehow humans are necessary, but almost always they don't have to do anything. This is in direct conflict with how our brains work; it is nearly impossible for most people to pay attention when their actions don't matter.

When the inevitable crash occurs, which we've already seen multiple times at level 1, I hope the driver doesn't take all the blame. It isn't reasonable for companies and regulators to expect people to do things they usually can't do.

 

[mfb]

Going from 2 to 3 is just a matter of error rate. If the error rate is below the rate of a human you might still want a human to pay attention (because the combination will make even fewer errors) but you don't need to have them.
Large training datasets can reduce that error rate, but if they come with accidents that's a problem of course. In the long run self-driving will certainly save many lives, but we generally don't accept killing some people to save more others later.

 

[DaveE]

we generally don't accept killing some people to save more others later.

Yes, this is the giant unsolved problem with self-driving cars. People kill people with bad driving all the time, but I don't think computers are allowed to kill anyone, yet.

 

[Borek]

but I don't think computers are allowed to kill anyone, yet.

Yep, that's a prerogative we keep to ourselves. At least as long as we ignore Tomahawks.

 

[jack action]

I kind of feel like self-driving vehicles should have a notification light on somewhere, to let other drivers and pedestrians know that there may or may not be a person paying attention behind the wheel.

But Red is taken (Fire and EMS), Blue is taken (law enforcement), Yellow is taken (tow trucks, trash trucks and other non-emergency vehicles), leaving what? Any other color or strobing lights would likely be a distraction that would cause other accidents that did not have to happen.

Maybe purple?

I like green.

But seriously, what would it change on your behavior if you crossed a vehicle with such a light? How many will you come across without any incident happening before you do exactly as the "driver" and not pay attention?

It is like wishing for a signaling system telling us how many years of experience or how many infractions every driver we encounter has. Maybe a heart monitor to see if the driver is having a heart attack? I don't know now and can't see how helpful it would be if I knew. If the other vehicle is where it is expected, no problems. If it is not, I'm responsible for watching for it.

 

[berkeman]

But seriously, what would it change on your behavior if you crossed a vehicle with such a light?

I think in a similar way to when I see a sign on a car that says "Student Driver". I definitely give such cars extra room, and avoid being in front of them...

 

[Office_Shredder]

I think in a similar way to when I see a sign on a car that says "Student Driver". I definitely give such cars extra room, and avoid being in front of them...

Doesn't this kind of defeat the purpose of the test? All the data is going to say self driving cars are super safe, because no one will get within twenty feet of them.

 

[jack action]

I think in a similar way to when I see a sign on a car that says "Student Driver". I definitely give such cars extra room, and avoid being in front of them...

Doesn't this kind of defeat the purpose of the test? All the data is going to say self driving cars are super safe, because no one will get within twenty feet of them.

And then I will put a self-driving sign on my car, and everybody will keep 20 ft away! Great!

 

[nsaspook]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/teslas...iving-not-all-that-hard-to-achieve-1426624848

Elon Musk, chief executive of Tesla Motors Inc. and Space Exploration Technologies Inc., says autonomous driving isn’t all that difficult to achieve.
“I view it as a solved problem. We know exactly what to do and we will be there in a few years,” Mr. Musk said at the Nvidia Corp. graphical processor conference in San Jose, Calif., on Tuesday.

https://news.yahoo.com/elon-musk-says-making-autonomous-154228504.html

Tesla CEO Elon Musk said on Saturday that making a self-driving car was harder than he expected, after the company's timeline for its latest Full Self-Driving (FSD) software slipped again.

Self-driving was a "hard problem" that "requires solving a large part of real-world AI," Musk tweeted.

"Didn't expect it to be so hard, but the difficulty is obvious in retrospect," he said.

 

[hutchphd]

So has anyone yet dubbed this the "touring test"?...too easy

 

[mfb]

The "not so difficult" and "in a few years" statement was from 2015, while the "harder than expected" statement is from 2021.
The FSD beta test is some notable progress, at least. Will be interesting to see results from that.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What happens if a cop sees a self-driving car do something illegal and or dangerous? How do you stop a car that has run amok?

 

[jack action]

How do you stop a car that has run amok?

That is not the question. The question is to whom do you give the ticket?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

That is not the question. The question is to who do you give the ticket?

I'd be more worried about stopping the car first. If you give cops a way to disable a self-driving vehicle, no doubt other people will get this and probably stop and then steal the cars!

But then there is the next question: Does Tesla get the ticket?

 

[Vanadium 50]

to who do you give the ticket?

whom.

Oh, you meant the real police, not the grammar police.

 

[jack action]

whom.

Oh, you meant the real police, not the grammar police.

I wrote it this way at first! But I wasn't sure and tried the other version and the spell checker Grammarly - which is usually pretty good - did not give an error either way, so I stuck with the last one.

Another proof that we are far from AI destroying the world.

 

[BillTre]

Another proof that we are far from AI destroying the world.

O, maybe these kind of errors are part of its plan!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I wrote it this way at first! But I wasn't sure and tried the other version and the spell checker Grammarly - which is usually pretty good - did not give an error either way, so I stuck with the last one.

Another proof that we are far from AI destroying the world.

Who does it to whom.

 

[DaveE]

It's past due for "whom" to be deprecated. Really, does it serve any useful purpose?
I decided several years ago that I just won't use it; Go ahead and correct me, I don't care.

OTOH, while I've never even been to Texas, I find myself enamored with "y'all". English is a living language and I feel some obligation for it's improvement.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

OTOH, while I've never even been to Texas, I find myself enamored with "y'all". English is a living language and I feel some obligation for it's improvement.

Who do you call if you live in Texas and need to move? Y'all Haul!

Everyone knows true American English is spoken in California. And there is a good reason for it. Movies and television were mostly made in Hollywood. As a result. California English became the standard language.

I was in Houston recently and was surprised at how few people have a Texas accent anymore. They all sound like Californians.

 

[pbuk]

Go ahead and correct me, I don't care.

Don't you mean "Go ahead and correct I?" Whenever someone makes a mistake like this, I always like to correct they. My wife does this too: the other day when I took she out for dinner the waiter asked if he should bring we some water. My wife was quick to correct he.

Or something.

 

[mfb]

A level 4 self-driving car will need to detect a police car stopping it.
People will figure out where the ticket goes. I could imagine the company offering self-driving to pay the tickets once they don't require a driver to pay attention any more. It's the logical place. It will be part of the cost of the system, of course.

 

[Borg]

If I remember correctly, I read a case where the driver was asleep and they stopped the car by getting in front of it and slowing to a stop.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

If I remember correctly, I read a case where the driver was asleep and they stopped the car by getting in front of it and slowing to a stop.

Of course that system could fail. Note the premise that the car is running wild.

 

[jack action]

Of course that system could fail. Note the premise that the car is running wild.

You don't need a self-driven car to have a car "running wild". Any ordinary car can be "running wild" with the right (wrong?) driver. Police have been dealing with those for years.

PIT maneuver:



Tire deflation:



With straps:

 

[berkeman]

Very cool, I had not seen that Grappler before!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You don't need a self-driven car to have a car "running wild". Any ordinary car can be "running wild" with the right (wrong?) driver. Police have been dealing with those for years.

PIT maneuver:



Tire deflation:



With straps:

I like the Grappler! Great idea.