Was Oprah right to preach about Obama's moral superiority?

[Alfi]

introduced as the "First Lady of Television", Oprah Winfrey

As to the OP
She 'controls' ( ok more like influance ) more people daily than just about anyone.
Like her or not, she swung an amount of votes just by saying she likes him.

 

[g33kski11z]

I don't know if I'd go as far to call it indoctrination, because that term fails to recognize that many people choose religions that they feel are personally beneficial

I think the term indoctrination fits. How many members of this forum were taken to church as a child? How may children do you know of that at an early age {we'll say 5 for the sake of argument} make decisions that they feel are personally beneficial. Not many... unless huge scoops of ice cream and candy are "personally beneficial"...

 

[seycyrus]

I think the term indoctrination fits. How many members of this forum were taken to church as a child? How may children do you know of that at an early age {we'll say 5 for the sake of argument} make decisions that they feel are personally beneficial. Not many... unless huge scoops of ice cream and candy are "personally beneficial"...

How many members were forced to go to school?

How many were forced to wear clothes?

Indoctrination is a poor choice of words.

 

[g33kski11z]

How many members were forced to go to school?

.. ok, I'll give you that.. every little child does have to go to school. {though personally, I think that's a weak statement} You have a choice {for the most part} once you are mature enough to make a responsible decision as to which college you attend or even what high school to go to, do you not?
I think that's where the word "indoctrination" fits. Children do not have a choice in the matter. They are told this is how it is, was and will be...

How many were forced to wear clothes?

Weak. Being told to wear clothes is totally different than being made to attend church.

I stand by my original statement.

 

[drankin]

Should parents be prevented from taking their children to church? If so, on what premise? I'm sure Oprah would not approve!

 

[seycyrus]

.. ok, I'll give you that.. every little child does have to go to school. {though personally, I think that's a weak statement} You have a choice {for the most part} once you are mature enough to make a responsible decision as to which college you attend or even what high school to go to, do you not?.

And you have a choice about attending church, do you not? At least at some age. Generally, this choice occurs before the choice of continuing education.

.. I think that's where the word "indoctrination" fits. Children do not have a choice in the matter. They are told this is how it is, was and will be...

Yes, children are *indoctrinated* into all aspects of society.

.Weak. Being told to wear clothes is totally different than being made to attend church..

It's impressing a belief system.

I stand by my original statement.

Which was just as weak as my statements.

 

[Gokul43201]

Should parents be prevented from taking their children to church? If so, on what premise?

On the premise that the overwhelming majority of churches in this country perpetuate ethical and probably legal fraud? Perhaps this will change when people start getting over this addiction to religion and start suing their parents for forcing them to attend church as children.

 

[g33kski11z]

And you have a choice about attending church, do you not? At least at some age.

.. Yes, you do.. after being told that if you disregard the given belief system you will burn in hell. That seems fair..

Yes, children are *indoctrinated* into all aspects of society.

Right, but what other aspect of society is an unprovable myth?

From dictionary.com "to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view"
... if your church tells you about all of the religious "gods", past and present, then maybe it wouldn't fit.

Should parents be prevented from taking their children to church?

Yes, until they are able to make an informed intelligent decision on their own. My child (9) has never been to a church, when he is old enough to make an informed decision, we will go to every church, temple, mosque or whatever is available to us and he can make up his own mind.

 

[seycyrus]

.. Yes, you do.. after being told that if you disregard the given belief system you will burn in hell. That seems fair...

Did your church tell you this? Mine didn't. Mine concentrated on being nice to people. Maybe we should just stop people from going to *your* church.

My school told me that if I didn't pay attention and do my homework, I wouldn't amount to anything in life! I hear that this *myth* is propogated widely. Such indoctrination!

.. Yes, until they are able to make an informed intelligent decision on their own. My child (9) has never been to a church, when he is old enough to make an informed decision, we will go to every church, temple, mosque or whatever is available to us and he can make up his own mind.

So, you propose not allowing people to bring children to church. What should they do with the children for the hour or two every Sunday while they are attending (if they choose to attend)?

It sounds like you are trying to create a systematic procedure and apply it to the raising of other people's children. That sure sounds like indoctrination to me.

 

[seycyrus]

On the premise that the overwhelming majority of churches in this country perpetuate ethical and probably legal fraud? Perhaps this will change when people start getting over this addiction to religion and start suing their parents for forcing them to attend church as children.

This is a ridiculous statement.

The "majority" of churches?

Prove it.

Once you do that, prove to me that there is a disproportionate perpetuation of said fraud in churches as opposed to every other group structure.

It's amazing to me that people who are assumed to scientific, posit such illogical statements simply to promote their own belief system.

 

[drankin]

On the premise that the overwhelming majority of churches in this country perpetuate ethical and probably legal fraud? Perhaps this will change when people start getting over this addiction to religion and start suing their parents for forcing them to attend church as children.

Prevented by whom? The government? Or is this just your biased opinion? I'm the VP of the stewardship board of my church. Trust me, no fraud there. A church is for families. Now, if we decided to hire babysitters so us adults could attend church while our kids are wondering why we get to go to church and they can't join their parents... That's rediculous.

 

[mgb_phys]

They make a promise of good times after you are dead in return for cash and obedience now - but they have no evidence to back up their claims.

It's like selling timeshares in an undiscovered country!

 

[g33kski11z]

*your* church

Doesn't exist.

My school told me that if I didn't pay attention and do my homework, I wouldn't amount to anything in life!

..um, I think that's true, you don't??

So, you propose not allowing people to bring children to church. What should they do with the children for the hour or two every Sunday while they are attending

Children should be outside playing, not being brainwashed to worship a mythological pagan deity.

They make a promise of good times after you are dead in return for cash and obedience now - but they have no evidence to back up their claims.

QFT

 

[drankin]

They make a promise of good times after you are dead in return for cash and obedience now - but they have no evidence to back up their claims.

It's like selling timeshares in an undiscovered country!

Like I said, I'm on the stewardship board, most (but not all) churches are not a business for profit. Non-profit. The only person getting paid at our church is the pastor and we determine his salary.

Even if there is no proof other than a belief on an ancient text. How is it a detriment to our society to teach teach good values? Where else is a society to get a foundation in values? The criminal system?

Sure, there are people who will exploit religion for gain, those are the people we hear about. They are not genuine people who would practice what they might preach.

What we don't hear about is the rest of the community that are good people because they adhere to value system they adopted due to their religion. Pretty much every major religion on the planet has a pretty good value system. And many jump around to whatever religion seems ideal to them. Or none at all. To expose your own child to a form of religion as a way to "indoctrinate" good values is not a bad thing. Some parents are extreme and unrealistic but they would be the same whether it was via religion or something else.

 

[Gokul43201]

They make a promise of good times after you are dead in return for cash and obedience now - but they have no evidence to back up their claims.

It's like selling timeshares in an undiscovered country!

That answers the questions addressed to me. Thanks, mgb.

 

[g33kski11z]

...I'm the VP of the stewardship board of my church. Trust me, no fraud there.

.. No fraud..? Your church doesn't claim that "god" will come to save all who worship him/her/it? It doesn't claim to offer "eternal life" in "heaven"? Provide proof of this non-fraud and I'll see you Sunday. :)

 

[Gokul43201]

Even if there is no proof other than a belief on an ancient text.

That is also not any kind of proof.

 

[drankin]

That is also not any kind of proof.

There is no proof. I didn't mean to suggest that there was. Religion is a belief system. It can't prove there is life after death and no one else can prove that their isn't. Most people like to believe that there is and that their life has a greater meaning beyond their own short life. It gives them hope, even if it's unfounded. Call it positive thinking, can't hurt to think how you live your life may influence a fantasy after you're dead. Unless you have a bomb strapped to you, of course. That's not the kind of value system any civilization should condone.

 

[Art]

It seems many people who do not attend a church believe those who do attend only do so in return for a promise of life after death.

Most people attend church for the values they preach, the support they give in times of need and for the sense of belonging to a congregation who shares similar values to their own. If there is an afterlife then that is simply a bonus as if there isn't you as the recently departed will be the last to know. A bit like trying to imagine your life before you were born.

Perhaps that mentality of 'what's in it for me' explains why those so quick to attack organised religion are not members of a church themselves as religion is about giving not taking and so religion has nothing to offer them.

 

[russ_watters]

That may be the real reason people go to church, Art, but it isn't why they are supposed to go to chuch. This is why you are supposed to go to church:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell. [See Calvin]

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/i...ww.reformed.org/documents/apostles_creed.html

People who go to church for other reasons are going for the wrong reasons. And I'll go a step further: people (ie, me) who went to church because their parents thought it was a good place to teach them values often decide later they don't need the church for that purpose, since that isn't it's purpose anyway.

 

[drankin]

That may be the real reason people go to church, Art, but it isn't why they are supposed to go to chuch. This is why you are supposed to go to church: http://www.reformed.org/documents/i...ww.reformed.org/documents/apostles_creed.html

People who go to church for other reasons are going for the wrong reasons. And I'll go a step further: people (ie, me) who went to church because their parents thought it was a good place to teach them values often decide later they don't need the church for that purpose, since that isn't it's purpose anyway.

We are not talking about Christianity exclusively here, we were using church as a common example of a place to go, but it could just as well be a Buddhist temple or whatever else. Our point is that it IS a good place where values are shown to children when they are young because they don't understand the theology. But they do get that you shouldn't steal, that you shouldn't lie, you should share, you should help people who need help, and so on. To not allow parents to bring their children with them to church is to lessen the reinforcement of the parents value system.

 

[Gokul43201]

Perhaps that mentality of 'what's in it for me' explains why those so quick to attack organised religion are not members of a church themselves as religion is about giving not taking and so religion has nothing to offer them.

Or perhaps it's the mentality to use one's mental capability, rather than fall for stories about imaginary beings.

 

[g33kski11z]

...Our point is that it IS a good place where values are shown to children when they are young because they don't understand the theology...

My child is old enough to understand the theology. Some of the stories told in church would contradict what he already knows as reality. {creation of the planet, no mythical figures hiding in the clouds} I will not disagree that some of the values instilled inside of a church as are good for children as well as adults. Although, these same values are taught to children in Cub Scouts. I do however, disagree with lying to my child.

(and as a side note, Santa Claus has always been a sticky area. My wife and I divorced over 2 yrs ago and its becoming increasingly difficult to "avoid" answering questions that he asks. I usually tell him that I don't know how Santa does it and to ask his mom. :)

 

[NeoDevin]

...Most people like to believe that there is and that their life has a greater meaning beyond their own short life...

Most people were raised to believe that there is, and have never known another way. All other ways have been sufficiently villified to them in their youth that they cannot imagine even trying it (such as comments about ``godless atheists'', ``immoral atheists'', ``evolution leads to racism'' and similar)

 

[drankin]

My child is old enough to understand the theology. Some of the stories told in church would contradict what he already knows as reality. {creation of the planet, no mythical figures hiding in the clouds} I will not disagree that some of the values instilled inside of a church as are good for children as well as adults. Although, these same values are taught to children in Cub Scouts. I do however, disagree with lying to my child.

(and as a side note, Santa Claus has always been a sticky area. My wife and I divorced over 2 yrs ago and its becoming increasingly difficult to "avoid" answering questions that he asks. I usually tell him that I don't know how Santa does it and to ask his mom. :)

We all teach our children our belief system. It's our parental obligation. How could we teach them otherwise? I can teach my child about our religion with a clean conscience. It would be disingenuous if I taught my children contrary to my own beliefs.

 

[Gokul43201]

We all teach our children our belief system. It's our parental obligation. How could we teach them otherwise? I can teach my child about our religion with a clean conscience. It would be disingenuous if I taught my children contrary to my own beliefs.

It would also be disingenuous to not make it absolutely clear that your beliefs are your own personal choice, not based on any verifiable evidence, and that each individual should, when they are old enough to examine various teachings critically, come to their own conclusions about them.

 

[seycyrus]

Doesn't exist.QFT

So, you have no firsthand knowledge.

um, I think that's true, you don't??

No I don't. I guess it depends on your definition of a life's value and what is meant by "get anywhere".

There are also many examples of people who have "got somewhere" and done poorly in school.

I do realize that these might be exceptions. And I do value an education, I have a PhD., but the the question is not whether I believe it is true or not. The question is whether it is a form of indoctrination. It is.

You seem to think that you are qualified to judge which forms of indoctrination should be tolerated.

 

[seycyrus]

.. No fraud..? Your church doesn't claim that "god" will come to save all who worship him/her/it? It doesn't claim to offer "eternal life" in "heaven"? Provide proof of this non-fraud and I'll see you Sunday. :)

Ahh, provide *proof* of a non-whatever...

I'm still waiting for proof that the majority of churches engage in legal fraud.

 

[seycyrus]

Although, these same values are taught to children in Cub Scouts. :)[/QUOTE

In origin, the cubscouts are certainly more theistic, than non-theistic.

 

[drankin]

It would also be disingenuous to not make it absolutely clear that your beliefs are your own personal choice, not based on any verifiable evidence, and that each individual should, when they are old enough to examine various teachings critically, come to their own conclusions about them.

Oh, come on. That would simply confuse a child. "I believe this completely, but there are no reason you should because there is no scientific proof as to why I believe this so deeply, now, quit bugging your sister". Give me a break.

 

[g33kski11z]

...So, you have no firsthand knowledge...

Not true. I was baptized catholic, and confirmed lutheran. I attended church until I was about 14.

...The question is whether it is a form of indoctrination. It is...

Agreed, as stated in post #43. The point I was trying to make is that making your child go to church is also indoctrination.

...You seem to think that you are qualified to judge which forms of indoctrination should be tolerated...

Not at all. I just choose not to lie to my child. If a person was so inclined to attend a church with children and explained to them {when/if the children ask} the realities {ie myth's} about the bible, that's fine. As I said there is a lot of good that comes from churches. Based on my life experience with churches {beyond the age of 14} I feel that they are just not for me. My child, when appropriate will make his own decision.

I'm still waiting for proof that the majority of churches engage in legal fraud.

I never said that.

...In origin, the cub scouts are certainly more theistic, than non-theistic...

I was an Eagle Scout. We had prayers sometimes {ceremonies and such}, so you're right.

 

[seycyrus]

Not true. I was baptized catholic, and confirmed lutheran. I attended church until I was about 14.

Well, I thought you were saying that you never belonged to a church. I would still liek to know what catholic or Lutheran you attended where little kids were taught that everyone was going to hell. I've NEVER heard a going to hell sermon.

Agreed, as stated in post #43. The point I was trying to make is that making your child go to church is also indoctrination.

Well, indoctrinatin certainly has overtones and implication. Go to your next school board meeting and ask them about their "indoctrination" procedure, and see how they respond :)

Not at all. I just choose not to lie to my child.

You start out telling them that light is BOTh a wave and a particle? :)

If a person was so inclined to attend a church with children and explained to them {when/if the children ask} the realities {ie myth's} about the bible, that's fine.

In my experience and those around me, it was more teaching about the good samaritan, than *any* mention of hell.

 

[g33kski11z]

...I would still liek to know what catholic or Lutheran you attended where little kids were taught that everyone was going to hell...

Grace Lutheran and Most Holy Name Catholic Church. Both in Pittsburgh Pa., Troy Hill to be specific.

.. but back to the original topic (sorry to thread crap).. but I thought we had "Separation of Church and State"? where are the limits on that? {I ask b/c I do not know}

 

[LightbulbSun]

Oh, come on. That would simply confuse a child. "I believe this completely, but there are no reason you should because there is no scientific proof as to why I believe this so deeply, now, quit bugging your sister". Give me a break.

So now you're condoning arrogance?

 

[drankin]

So now you're condoning arrogance?

You are going to have to break that down for me. I'm not sure where you are coming from.