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Ajith Prasanna
We all talk about other matters, before that let's talk about ourselves.
Ajith Prasanna said:I just need to know about human mind. From a physicist's point of view, that's all
einswine said:A starting place could be Francis Crick The Astonishing Hypothesis. I found it a worth while read but not astonishing. The emergent theory of consciousness is also worth looking at. I am skeptical but not dismissive. I would appreciate a book recommendation on that.
DiracPool said:I might not go so far as "dissuade" someone from reading "The Astonishing Hypothesis ...,".
einswine said:In truth it's the only book I've read on the mechanistic view. Care to recommend a better one?
And, even if he did, how the brain works is only indirectly connected to how the mind works. The brain, as hardware, can accommodate such a huge variety of what we conceive of as mind that a physics understanding of mind is a pointless thing to shoot for. Getting traction on mind is generally tackled at the level of psychology; very far away from physics.DiracPool said:Francis Crick knows (knew) next to nothing about how the brain works...
Added to my wishlistDiracPool said:Yeah, I can recommend a great book, for what it is you want to know...It's called the King James version of the holy bible! Just kidding. It's called "Going inside: a tour round a single moment of consciousness," by John McCrone. This is a great book. Even though it was published in 2000, the concepts in this book transcend decades. It still holds up. The most important part of it is that it gives you a history of of the nightmare of errors that it took us cognitive neuroscientists to arrive at where we are. And for me, this is the most important thing about science, it's being able to identify with the history of thought and the social contact of the characters/players that advanced the state of the art (of the science) over the decades. It's not just about shutting up and calculating.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0880642629/?tag=pfamazon01-20
Thanks, it's on order. But its a bit creepy that you can divine "what I want to know" from that post.DiracPool said:Yeah, I can recommend a great book, for what it is you want to know...
zoobyshoe said:Getting traction on mind is generally tackled at the level of psychology; very far away from physics.
zoobyshoe said:The brain, as hardware, can accommodate such a huge variety of what we conceive of as mind that a physics understanding of mind is a pointless thing to shoot for. Getting traction on mind is generally tackled at the level of psychology; very far away from physics.
But you're missing my point. Brain and mind are two different things. How the brain works, might, indeed, be traced lower and lower to the underlying physics. That which we call mind happens at a completely different level. It's the difference between computer hardware and what gets programmed into the computer. You look at the program at the level of programming. I have a Mac, but I can install Windows on it if I want. Mind is about the difference between OS X and Windows. The physics of the hardware doesn't give you much insight into the differences between those two operating systems.gleem said:There is a growing number of researcher that think physics can significantly contribute to the understanding of brain and other complex biological structures.
see http://www.gatsby.ucl.ac.uk/~zhaoping/prints/PWAPR04news-brain.pdf
And most recently a Commentary in Physics Today "New mathematical physics needed for the life sciences" calls for the education of physicists in the intricacies of the life sciences including neuroscience.
See http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/magazine/physicstoday/article/69/1/10.1063/PT.3.3036
zoobyshoe said:It's the difference between computer hardware and what gets programmed into the computer.
Yes, I agree that a computer to brain analogy is not that good, and, yes, mind arises from the activity of the brain, but the things we speak of as properties of the mind have much less to do with the physics underlying it all than with a particular mind's history and training. Why is a particular person afraid of spiders but not of heights? Why does he like red but not yellow? Why is one person chronically late while another is chronically early?gleem said:i know very little about neuroscience but I don't think your analogy is that good . From the moment of birth we are accumulating data and organizing it. The brain must come with a sort of BIOS It must come with some sort of "firmware" which must be intrinsic to the physical nature of the brain. So I am saying that the mind is in part a reflection of the biophysical structure of the brain and you cannot definitively separate them. We see that drug for example can create psychosis and well as treat (ameliorate) it. Changing the biochemical environment can affect the mind. Hormone affect the mind. We all have unique personalities It seems more and more we find structure and function intertwined.
zoobyshoe said:...
Why is a particular person afraid of spiders but not of heights? ... Neuroscience can study, as an example, the neuronal train of events when someone experiences anxiety, but psychology studies the emotional train of events whereby something (like a spider) might evoke anxiety. ...
einswine said:How do we "know", as a fact, that a fear of spiders does not have a neurological component?
zoobyshoe said:Neuroscience can study, as an example, the neuronal train of events when someone experiences anxiety, but psychology studies the emotional train of events whereby something (like a spider) might evoke anxiety. "Mind" is a psychological concept and 'the workings of the mind' are psychological considerations. Asking what we know about the mind is a different question than asking what we know about the brain. The emphasis is totally different.
Electricity and magnetism are two separate things, two separate foci, as it were. The fact they are inextricable from each other does not make them the same thing. Electricity has it's own laws and units of measurement and magnetism has separate ones. It's like mass and volume. You can't have a mass without it having some volume, but mass and volume aren't the same thing.DiracPool said:I agree with this, and with your sentiment that we can't eschew the school of psychological science. The fact, though, is that the mind and brain are not different, they are one in the same in same way that electricity and magnetism are.
einswine said:How do we "know", as a fact, that a fear of spiders does not have a neurological component?
It's possible that there is a network that is "sensitive to" insects, or can be once it has experienced them, but being sensitive to something and afraid of it are two different things. The fusiform gyrus is "sensitive to" the human face, but there are faces that we like, faces that are neutral, and faces that are scary.DiracPool said:My guess is that there is a neural network, probably in the midbrain tegmentum somewhere, that is specifically sensitive to arachnids, and probably another that is sensitive to insects in general. I have little doubt about this. I had a physiological psychology professor in college who discussed this one day in class. He said he would physically injure himself or get in a car wreck as an instinctual response to withdrawal from an insect. We all laughed, but secretly shared his unconscious terror
zoobyshoe said:It's two vastly different approaches, two different foci.
zoobyshoe said:The mind arises from the brain, yes, but "mind" is a separate concept from "brain".
zoobyshoe said:When I mentioned someone who is afraid of spiders, I meant someone with a real phobia, specifically of spiders, as opposed to other dangerous situations and animals. I used to know a girl who would walk boldly around alone late at night in dark neighborhoods, but she was deathly afraid of earwigs.
The mind is a complex system of cognitive processes that includes thoughts, perceptions, emotions, and consciousness. It is responsible for our ability to think, reason, and experience the world around us.
The mind and behavior are closely connected. Our thoughts and emotions can influence our actions and decision-making. For example, if someone is feeling anxious, they may behave more timidly than if they were feeling confident.
Yes, the mind can be studied scientifically through various methods such as neuroimaging, behavioral experiments, and psychological assessments. These methods help researchers understand the underlying mechanisms and processes of the mind.
While the mind and brain are closely linked, they are not the same. The brain is a physical organ that is responsible for regulating bodily functions, while the mind is a complex concept that includes cognitive processes and consciousness.
The mind is highly adaptable and can be changed or improved through various methods such as therapy, mindfulness practices, and learning new skills. By understanding the workings of the mind, we can make changes to improve our mental health and well-being.