What if black holes can violate second law of thermodynamics

In summary, the conversation discusses the possibility of black holes violating the second law of thermodynamics. The no-hair theorem suggests that black holes only have three degrees of freedom, and it is questioned whether this allows them to violate the law. It is also mentioned that the universe may have started off in a low-entropy state and that black holes may be able to reduce entropy. The ramifications to physics if this is true are also brought up.
  • #1
kodama
978
132
GUT's violate baryon number b/c baryon conservation is an emergent phenomenon

second law of thermodynamics clearly applies to macroscopic systems, and are the result of the many ways in which atoms of macroscopic systems can be arranged.

what if second law of thermodynamics though is just emergent and only applies to systems that are composed of quanta with many ways or arrangement but not a fundamental property of nature itself.

the no-hair theorem implies black holes only have 3 degrees of freedom.
mass, angular moment, and charge.

maybe it is possible for black holes to violate the second law of thermodynamics, that adding matter does not increase entropy since it is lost behind the event horizon.

the universe must have started off in a very low-entropy state. maybe entropy can be reduced by black holes.

what are the ramifications to physics if black holes can violate the second law of thermodynamics?
 
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  • #2
Closed pending moderation

Edit: this thread will remain closed. Violations of the 2nd law of thermodynamics by ordinary systems are well described by the fluctuation theorem. The mentors are unaware of any work applying fluctuation theorem to black holes. If there is such work, then please PM me with it and we can reopen the thread.
 
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1. What is the second law of thermodynamics?

The second law of thermodynamics is a fundamental law of physics that states that the total entropy (disorder or randomness) of an isolated system will always increase over time. This means that energy will always flow from areas of high concentration to areas of low concentration, resulting in a decrease in usable energy in the system.

2. How do black holes relate to the second law of thermodynamics?

Black holes are massive objects with extremely strong gravitational pull, so much so that they can trap even light. According to the second law of thermodynamics, the entropy of a closed system (such as a black hole) should always increase. Therefore, the presence of a black hole should also increase the entropy of a system.

3. Can black holes violate the second law of thermodynamics?

Based on our current understanding of physics, it is highly unlikely that black holes can violate the second law of thermodynamics. The law is a fundamental principle that has been extensively tested and confirmed through numerous experiments and observations. While there are some theories that suggest black holes may be able to temporarily decrease the entropy of a system, it is not considered a violation of the law.

4. What evidence do we have for the second law of thermodynamics?

The second law of thermodynamics has been observed and confirmed in numerous experiments and observations. For example, the process of heat transfer from a hot object to a cold object is a manifestation of the second law. Additionally, the expansion of the universe and the formation of stars and galaxies are all consistent with the second law of thermodynamics.

5. Are there any exceptions to the second law of thermodynamics?

While the second law of thermodynamics is a fundamental principle, there are some exceptions to it. One of the most well-known exceptions is the formation of complex, organized structures such as living organisms. These structures appear to decrease the entropy of a system, but they do so by increasing the entropy of their surroundings, thus still adhering to the law. Additionally, some quantum mechanical phenomena, such as the spontaneous reversal of a particle's direction of motion, also appear to contradict the second law. However, these exceptions do not invalidate the law as a whole.

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