What Drives U.S. Support for Israel?

[Gonzolo]

Why the US supports Israel

I am not positionning myself on whether it should or not, or whether it is enough or too much, since I have met, and followed the points of view of people from Israel, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq, and have managed to get along with each of these persons. I try to keep an open mind.

But one of the most intriguing experiences I had was discussing with a person from Iraq in 2001. When 911 happened, I asked her what she thought of it, and to my surprise, understood that she supported, morally, Bin Laden (yes, a pre-911 Iraqi who seemed to support Al Quaeda). Now I have personnally been on top of the WTC as a kid, so you may imagine the sudden puzzling sentiments I had towards this person, who was generally friendly. When I asked her what it is that she and Bin Laden would like the US to do, she basically said that the US should stop supporting Israel financially. I did much more physics at the time than world affairs, so the conversation curved towards other subjects.

Now I am wondering, what are some main justifications for this Israel support? I want to hear what people here say about it.

 

[setAI]

Israel has given every chance for the Palestinian refugees who "squatted" on the unclaimed/unincorporated land that is now Israel [and thus had no legitimate political authority or sovereignty]- but from the beginning the Palestinians- even though they had been rejected and thrown out of neighboring countries- maintained a policy of anti-Semitism and slapping the helping hand of Israel- who offered financial incentives /jobs/healthcare to any Palestinians willing to live as citizens of Israel-

they could have integrated themselves in the Israeli state- and worked within the Israeli democracy to rebuild and define the Palestinian culture and raise the quality of life- even if they were second class citizens- by being citizens of Israel and working peacefully within the system through political activism they would have achieved far more than they could ever hope to achieve now-

but they rather would foster their ancient primitive religious hatred for the Jews- and continue some ridiculous quest for a Palestinian state instead of Israel- [there would not have been a Palestine with or WITHOUT Israel- it would still be an unclaimed/disputed territory like Kashmir

I understand that Israel took some tough actions in the 67 war and since- but they are/were ALL unequivocally justified as the result of the incredibly self-destructive/ nihilistic/ unrealistic/ anti-Semitic mindset that makes the Palestinians refuse to seek a compromise or see that the ONLY way to get anything accomplished politically in the modern world is through diplomacy/advocacy/and peaceful activism-

as far as I'm concerned- Israel is totally justified in their most aggressive efforts- and although I tend to agree with Europe's politics in general- not on this- the USA should even support Israel more- and we should never again discuss anything with the Palestinian leadership unless the HUMBLY come to the table and offer compromises- at the VERY LEAST the Palestinians should forget about Jerusalem and try to pursue Mecca/Medina like international status for the Haram esh-sharif-

 

[member 5645]

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=48235&highlight=israel
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=48080&highlight=israel

This topic comes up often...

 

[Gonzolo]

Thanks setAI. The person did have a surisingly intolerant view for Jews. I remember asking where she thought the (Israeli) Jews should go, and she said something like they should go back to Europe.

 

[Aquamarine]

Eliminating Israel is only one of the things Al Qaida want.

“The Militants Seek to Destroy the West so They Can Impose a Global Islamic State”

False. Islamic militants' main objective is not conquest, but to beat back what they perceive as an aggressive West that is supposedly trying to complete the project begun during the Crusades and colonial periods of denigrating, dividing, and humiliating Islam. The militants' secondary goal is the establishment of the caliphate, or single Islamic state, in the lands roughly corresponding to the furthest extent of the Islamic empire of the late first and early second centuries. Today, this state would encompass the Middle East, the Maghreb (North Africa bordering the Mediterranean), Andalusia in southern Spain, Central Asia, parts of the Balkans, and possibly some Islamic territories in the Far East. Precisely how this utopian caliphate would function is vague. The militants believe that if all Muslims act according to a literal interpretation of the Islamic holy texts, an almost mystical transformation to a just and perfect society will follow.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2536

 

[russ_watters]

The US supports Israel, by and large, because we accept the existence of the objective definition of terrorism. We support Israel because they are under constant attack from terrorists.

 

[russ_watters]

Aquamarine - considering Bin Laden has been fairly specific about his deisre to either convert us or kill us, that article is pretty disturbing. Getting us out of Saudia Arabia may be his first goal, but it isn't his only one.

edit: actually, it may not even be his most important one. In his "Letter to America", his first demand is that we convert to Islam, the second that we give up our culture - getting out of Saudia Arabia comes fifth.

What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam...

The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you. [reading into that, he means our culture - ie, the immorality of allowing women to go to school].

 

[Smurf]

America supports Israel because it is one of the stronger threats to peace in the middle east, they may do this for a number of reasons, possibly because they fear nostradamas' prophecy that the world will end when there is peace in the middle east, but most likely because they get mass amounts of cash by selling to all factions during the fighting there.

 

[franznietzsche]

America supports Israel because it is one of the stronger threats to peace in the middle east, they may do this for a number of reasons, possibly because they fear nostradamas' prophecy that the world will end when there is peace in the middle east, but most likely because they get mass amounts of cash by selling to all factions during the fighting there.

I didn't know we believe nostradamas. I hope you don't. I might disregard what you say entirely on the basis of ad hominem arguments then.

We don't even sell to israel much less to anyone else. We give israel everything for free. And everyone else we have economic sanctions against.

 

[Bilal]

Are you taking about other planet??

AS Palestinian, I can not imagine how such ignorance exists!

Many people living in Palestine for centuries (Muslims, Christian , Jews ..) peacefully, till UK occupied the country (1917) and decided to replace the Palestinian by European Jews immigrants. They created what Called Jews State or Israel by ‘’ethic cleansing’’ of 530 Palestinian towns.

Here other facts:

- 30% of Palestinian are Christian, they representing more than 50% of political leadership: George Habash (Leader of Palestinian Popular Front), Naief Hawatmeh (leader of Palestine Democratic Front), Hanan Ashrawi (Minister) , Nabil abu Radina (Top adviser), Ramzi Khouri (Adiviser), Azmi Beshara (Politician and Thinkers), Edward Saeed ( Thinkers) ……

- The conflict is nationalist: Zionism (who want to create pure Jews State in Palestine) against the Palestinian national movement (Muslims and Chrsiatin ) who want to defend their homeland.

- Recently the conflict became more religious, because the Zionists want to take advantage fro what called war on terrorism.

References:

Gush shalom (Israeli peace bloc)

http://gush-shalom.org/english/

Documented site about 530 Palestinian towns (Muslims and Christian) which destroyed completely by the Zionist and replaced by Jews settlements (This site shows by pictures how the militant Zionists stole the Palestinian houses and lands):

http://www.palestineremembered.com/

Apartheid wall, settlements and checkpoints:

http://gush-shalom.org/thewall/



Sharon (man of peace)!

http://www.counterpunch.org/sharon.html


setAI

If Israel allowed the refugees to return back 'as you claim!' , then 70% of the people of Palestinian (Israel) will be Muslims and Christian! so Israel will not be Jews States anymore!

From the very beginning, no alternative of ''ethic cleansing'' to create Jews State ...

Just example:

Three Christian towns were destroyed by the Zionist in 50s (among 530 towns), most of the people of these towns still living in Israel, they are fighting to rebuild their towns, but the Israeli government rejected completely to let them to return (even they have Israeli nationality!). Israeli leaders claim that if they let those people to return to their homes, then people of 530 towns will do the same!
Just check this site for the people of these three Christian towns:

http://www.iqrit.org/eng/main.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iqrit

Israel has given every chance for the Palestinian refugees who "squatted" on the unclaimed/unincorporated land that is now Israel [and thus had no legitimate political authority or sovereignty]- but from the beginning the Palestinians- even though they had been rejected and thrown out of neighboring countries- maintained a policy of anti-Semitism and slapping the helping hand of Israel- who offered financial incentives /jobs/healthcare to any Palestinians willing to live as citizens of Israel-

they could have integrated themselves in the Israeli state- and worked within the Israeli democracy to rebuild and define the Palestinian culture and raise the quality of life- even if they were second class citizens- by being citizens of Israel and working peacefully within the system through political activism they would have achieved far more than they could ever hope to achieve now-

but they rather would foster their ancient primitive religious hatred for the Jews- and continue some ridiculous quest for a Palestinian state instead of Israel- [there would not have been a Palestine with or WITHOUT Israel- it would still be an unclaimed/disputed territory like Kashmir

I understand that Israel took some tough actions in the 67 war and since- but they are/were ALL unequivocally justified as the result of the incredibly self-destructive/ nihilistic/ unrealistic/ anti-Semitic mindset that makes the Palestinians refuse to seek a compromise or see that the ONLY way to get anything accomplished politically in the modern world is through diplomacy/advocacy/and peaceful activism-

as far as I'm concerned- Israel is totally justified in their most aggressive efforts- and although I tend to agree with Europe's politics in general- not on this- the USA should even support Israel more- and we should never again discuss anything with the Palestinian leadership unless the HUMBLY come to the table and offer compromises- at the VERY LEAST the Palestinians should forget about Jerusalem and try to pursue Mecca/Medina like international status for the Haram esh-sharif-

 

[PerennialII]

The previous post made some sense. The last theory I picked, which actually sounds plausible as much as anything else, was that the conservative christians, in addition to US jews of course, are the ones who are behind the relentless & strong US support for Israel ... because the bible says its supposed to be there and they want it protected.

 

[franznietzsche]

The previous post made some sense. The last theory I picked, which actually sounds plausible as much as anything else, was that the conservative christians, in addition to US jews of course, are the ones who are behind the relentless & strong US support for Israel ... because the bible says its supposed to be there and they want it protected.

Can't argue much with that. Its mainly taught as a moral imperative in coservative families. Well, in mine, and anyone else i know who's family is conservative anyway.

 

[Gonzolo]

Thanks russ watters, thanks Bilal.

Bilal and setAI seem to have quite opposing views, so in prevention of this thread becoming a bash-fest, please let's stick to my original question. If further posts are directed to me, there won't be any bashing.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Gonzolo

I do not think her answer is wise and realist answers! May be she experience horrible problems due to the war on her country (many people in Iraq believe that American are Jews)

Most of people in ME did not hear about OBL or Alqaeda till 11/9 attacks!

OBL and his ideology were supported by USA in 80s to fight the communism. We used to think about them as ‘’CIA boys’’ till we hear about 11/9.

OBL has nothing to do with Palestine, even he (and his followers) do not respect the Palestinian because we have many Christian and secularists in the leadership. In fact, we can not imagine living under his rule! Even Islamic organizations in Palestine as Hamas, want to build real democratic State which give equal rights for all people including the Jews.

OBL used to send videos in 80s asking Muslims to leave the ‘’secularist, non religious Palestinian’’ and to fight the Atheists in Afghanistan. Of course USA was glad to hear about such videos (may be they financed them also). OBL belong to extreme school (salfi Jehadi) which have followers only in the Gulf and in Yemen. He even does not believe that Muslims of Palestine (also Syria, Egypt, and North Africa) are good Muslims.

OBL just using the Palestinian tragedy to find supporters as Saddam did before. You can not find two people in the East do not agree about Palestine, so anyone want to be popular in this region, he should mention Palestine!

I think OBL has problem with USA because according to his religious school; non Muslims armies are allowed to exist in the Saudi Arabia … also he is angry from the corruption of the royal family of Saudi Arabia.

**************************

Historical facts about Palestine and Jews:

-In 11th, Catholic Europe declared Holy war (Crusade) to liberate the holy land (Palestine).

- In 1095, Jerusalem fall in the hand of crusaders, they murdered all the citizens of the city : 60000 Muslims, 4000 Jews and several thousands of Orthodox Christian.

- Muslims armies succeeded to liberate Jerusalem in 1187 after bloody wars ...

- Muslims rebuilt the Jews region before rebuilding the Muslims quarters ... ! (Till now the Jews admire Salaheddin -leader of Islamic armies in that time).

- Palestine was liberated completely by the nations of ME after 200 years of wars. Jews welcomed that because they allowed living in peace in Palestine (which was not the case under Roman-Crusade laws) with Muslims and Christian.

-After liberation: Crusaders are allowed to return back to Europe or to stay in Palestine. Till the beginning of 20th century, majority of people of Lebanon and 30% of Palestinian are Christian. Many of them are grandsons of crusaders mixed with Arab Christian... Most of villages near Ramallah were built by Crusades and still have its origin name.

- I think most of people in ME believe that if Palestine is liberated in future, Jews should be allowed to live peacefully in the Holy Land as Crusaders (Catholic Christian) did before 8 centuries.

Facts about Jews in Palestine:

- Muslims invaded Palestine in 7th century (Arab Caanite exist in Palestine thousands years before Islam, they built Jerusalem and most of exist cities). They were welcomed by Jews because Roman in that time murdered many of Jews, destroyed their temple and did not let them to live in Jerusalem ... while Muslims let them at least to live in Jerusalem. They did not revenge for Jesus as Roman did, because Muslims do not believe that Jesus was killed.


- First modern Jews immigrants, came from Russia in 1882 as political refugees ... Palestinian built for them two cities. Hudaira and Betah Teqwa. In fact Jews welcomed by native people ...

-Problems started in 1897, when some seculars nationalist European Jews created ''Zionism'' which aims to convert Palestine into Jews homeland -ignoring the right of native people!

-Zionism became more dangerous after UK broke its promises (as usual) to free Palestine and decided to create Jews homeland in Palestine by using all possible tactics.

In 20s , after the native people of Palestine realized the danger of Zionism and Jews immigration , they started to fight back … which could be the real start of the current conflict.

 

[Bilal]

Why you think Palestinian conflict is complex?

We do not fight them because they are ‘’Jews’’ or ‘’non Muslims’’. Palestinian are multi religion society for centuries … if you visit Bethlehem or Nazareth you will not see difference between Christian and Muslims … also many people are not religious as any nation on the earth.

Suppose ‘’Muslims or Christian’’ invaded our homeland. Surely we will fight them even if we have similar religion. I do not care about the religion of neighbor , but I want to be free in my homeland, I want to live free in my country … I can not imagine to see this neighbor who immigrated from Russia or Ethiopia kick me from house in the name of the Bible!

Is my crime that I born in Palestine? If any of you born as Palestinian , will he accept to give his land and house to immigrant from other countries and live under miserable conditions in refugees camps? Will you accept to do that because the god promised the Jews to give them Palestine 3000 years ago! Or because some Jews tribes lived in Palestine 2000 years ago!

I know that many ‘’born again American Christian’’ will not accept to hear the Palestinian views because it is against their god teachings.

Here site of North American Christian organization who visit Palestine, showing the daily life of Palestine among the ‘’Jews settlers’’ who immigrated recently from Russia and Ethiopia..

http://www.cpt.org/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=school_patrol&page=1

 

[Bilal]

USA support Israel unconditionally since 1948.

In that time Muslims extremists were alliance of USA against USSR, they were great Mujahiden (in the eyes of the White House) against the ''empire of Satan - USSR'' ... just recently, USA considered them as terrorists.

This means the American support of Israel started decades before what called ''Islamic terrorism).

The US supports Israel, by and large, because we accept the existence of the objective definition of terrorism. We support Israel because they are under constant attack from terrorists.

 

[Bilal]

OBL said several times (since 1993): USA should withdraw from his country and stop supporting the corrupted leaders...

I do not know from where you got such misleading information: convert or die!

10% of Arab are christen, why Muslims did not ask them to convert or to die in last 1400 years?

Lebanon with 70% of Muslims, the president should by ONLY Christian! Could any Christian country accepted to be ruled by Muslims only!

Aquamarine - considering Bin Laden has been fairly specific about his deisre to either convert us or kill us, that article is pretty disturbing. Getting us out of Saudia Arabia may be his first goal, but it isn't his only one.

edit: actually, it may not even be his most important one. In his "Letter to America", his first demand is that we convert to Islam, the second that we give up our culture - getting out of Saudia Arabia comes fifth.

 

[Gonzolo]

Thanks for the info. Just to clarify, the person was probably more of an acquaintance than a friend, as I have only seen her a few times and it was about 3 years ago.

 

[Aquamarine]

Aquamarine - considering Bin Laden has been fairly specific about his deisre to either convert us or kill us, that article is pretty disturbing. Getting us out of Saudia Arabia may be his first goal, but it isn't his only one.

edit: actually, it may not even be his most important one. In his "Letter to America", his first demand is that we convert to Islam, the second that we give up our culture - getting out of Saudia Arabia comes fifth.

I stand corrected.

 

[Jake]

USA support Israel unconditionally since 1948.

In that time Muslims extremists were alliance of USA against USSR, they were great Mujahiden (in the eyes of the White House) against the ''empire of Satan - USSR'' ... just recently, USA considered them as terrorists.

This means the American support of Israel started decades before what called ''Islamic terrorism).

No terrorism isn't the reason, it's existential and/or security threats in general. I.E - the '48 independance war.

 

[russ_watters]

USA support Israel unconditionally since 1948.

The US isn't an entity unto itself. When I say "The US," I'm talking about the individuals who make up the population of the US.

Most of the population of the US wasn't even born in 1948. People in the US today support Israel largely for the reason I stated (my post was in the present tense).

Further, motivations change as times change. The reason we supported Israel in 1948 is, quite naturally, different than the reason we support it today.

 

[russ_watters]

I stand corrected.

No biggie - frankly, I blame the media. Seriously. This is an issue on which I think the media's liberal bias shows. It annoys me greatly that they mislead the population by mischaracterizing the terrorists and their motivations.