Why is the tension in a falling chain not equal to ρgy?

In summary, the conversation discusses the use of the formula ##F= ma## when there is a change in mass and how it applies to a hanging chain. The book sets the mass as ##\rho l##, which is the mass of the entire chain. The tension in the chain at the hole is not ρgy, as it immediately reduces upon being released. The conversation also mentions splitting the chain into a hanging part and a non-hanging part and considering internal forces between the two. Ultimately, the conversation concludes that the force ##\rho gy## does not only pull the lying chain, but also the hanging chain as long as the simplifying assumption that all parts of the chain are moving with the same velocity is made.
  • #1
Rikudo
120
26
Homework Statement
A chain with length L is held stretched out on a frictionless horizontal
table, with a length y0 hanging down through a hole in the table. The
chain is released. As a function of time, find the length that hangs down
through the hole (don’t bother with t after the chain loses contact with
the table).
Relevant Equations
F = dp/dt
Firstly, There is something I want to clarify. When the system starts moving, parts of the chain that still lies on the table, which have mass
## \frac {(L- y_0)M} {L}##, will be pulled by the force that the hanging chain's weight exert,right?

If yes, then :
As far as I know, the formula ##F= ma## is originally created from ##F= m\,\frac {dv} {dt} + v\, \frac {dm}{dt}##, which can be used only if there is no change in mass.
So, as I have stated in the first paragraph, the mass that is pulled by hanging chain will continue to change after the system starts moving. Then, why the book still use ##F = ma## although the mass is not constant?

classicaltextbook.pdf - Profile 1 - Microsoft​ Edge 06_09_2021 18_42_52 (2).png
 
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  • #2
Rikudo said:
why the book still use F=ma although the mass is not constant?
The book is setting m as ##\rho l##, which is the mass of the whole chain.
 
  • #3
haruspex said:
The book is setting m as ##\rho l##, which is the mass of the whole chain.
so, all parts of the chain is pulled by ##\rho gy## (which is the hanging chain's weight exert)? Why does this force
(##\rho gy##) do not pulls the lying chain only? (as what i have stated in the first paragraph before)
 
  • #4
Rikudo said:
so, all parts of the chain is pulled by ##\rho gy## (which is the hanging chain's weight exert)? Why does this force
(##\rho gy##) do not pulls the lying chain only? (as what i have stated in the first paragraph before)
You can view it that way that it pulls only the hanging chain, but soon you 'll realize that it is equivalent with pulling the whole chain as long as you make the simplifying assumption that all parts of the chain are moving with the same velocity(and thus same acceleration) for every time t.

To see it, split the chain into a hanging part ##m_{hanging}=\rho g y## and non hanging (or lying in the table) ##m_{table}=\rho g(l-y)## and consider the internal forces between the two parts which form a Newton 3rd law pair. Then write Newton's 2nd law (in the form of variable mass) for each part separately, you will get two equations. Add the two equations and the term ##\frac{dm_{hanging}}{dt}v## from one equation will cancel with the term ##\frac{dm_{table}}{dt}v## from the other equation because $$\frac{dm_{hanging}}{dt}=-\frac{dm_{table}}{dt}$$. Also the Newton 3rd law pair will cancel on the otherside of the equations and all you'll be left with is the equation that your book gives which is the same as considering the weight of the hanging chain being applied to the whole chain.
 
  • #5
Rikudo said:
Why does this force (ρgy) do not pulls the lying chain only?
Because the tension in the chain at the hole is not ρgy.
That would have been the tension there before it was released, but on release it reduces immediately. Otherwise, there would be no net force on the hanging part, and it would not move.
Delta2 said:
a hanging part ##m_{hanging}=ρg##y and non hanging (or lying in the table) ##m_{table}=ρg(l−y)##
You mean ##m_{hanging}=ρy## and non hanging ##m_{table}=ρ(l−y)##.
 
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1. What is the "Falling Chain" experiment?

The "Falling Chain" experiment, also known as the "Chain Fountain" or "Chain Fountain Effect," is a physics demonstration in which a long chain is dropped from a height and appears to defy gravity by rising up and out of the container it is dropped into.

2. How does the "Falling Chain" experiment work?

The chain fountain effect is caused by a combination of tension, inertia, and gravity. When the chain is dropped, the bottom links experience a tension force that causes them to accelerate downwards. However, the inertia of the rest of the chain causes it to stay in place, creating a loop. As the chain continues to fall, the bottom links hit the bottom of the container and come to a stop, while the rest of the chain continues to fall, creating the illusion of the chain rising up.

3. Who discovered the "Falling Chain" effect?

The "Falling Chain" effect was first described by physicist David Morin in his paper "The Chain Fountain: An Inverted Chain Lift," published in the American Journal of Physics in 2001.

4. What are some real-world applications of the "Falling Chain" experiment?

The "Falling Chain" experiment has been used to study the properties of granular materials, such as sand and rice, which behave similarly to the falling chain. It has also been used to demonstrate the principles of tension, inertia, and gravity in physics education and outreach.

5. Are there any variations of the "Falling Chain" experiment?

Yes, there are several variations of the "Falling Chain" experiment, such as using different types of chains, containers, and dropping methods. Some variations include using a metal chain instead of a plastic one, using a larger or smaller container, or dropping the chain from a height onto a horizontal surface instead of into a container.

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