Momentum of a System and External Forces

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the conservation of momentum principle in the context of car collisions, particularly focusing on the influence of internal and external forces during brief time intervals. Participants explore the conditions under which momentum can be approximated as conserved despite the presence of external forces such as friction and braking.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant explains that the ratio of internal to external forces and the briefness of the time interval are crucial for determining the applicability of momentum conservation in collisions.
  • In the context of car collisions, it is suggested that the forces during the collision are much stronger than frictional forces, allowing for an approximation of momentum conservation during a short time slice around the impact.
  • Another participant notes that car crashes are typically inelastic, implying that while momentum is conserved, kinetic energy is not, which raises questions about the nature of collisions.
  • A participant seeks a mathematical expression to support the idea of internal versus external forces, specifically looking for a ratio or formula that could quantify this relationship.
  • There is a suggestion that the ratio between braking distance and crush zone could serve as a useful approximation in this context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of collisions and the conservation of momentum versus energy. While some agree on the conservation of momentum in inelastic collisions, there is no consensus on a specific mathematical expression to quantify the relationship between internal and external forces.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the topic, including the need for a mathematical framework to support their arguments, and recognize that assumptions about forces and time intervals play a significant role in the discussion.

gibberingmouther
Messages
120
Reaction score
15
So Pearson is telling me that, basically, the ratio of internal to external forces and the briefness of the time interval is what determines whether the external forces on a system whose momentum we're studying will affect whether we can obtain a decent approximation of the momenta of the objects using the conservation of momentum principle.

Specifically, in a car collision situation where the drivers are pushing their breaks when the cars hit: "The collision between the cars involves brief forces that are much stronger than the forces of friction exerted on the cars by the road. Thus if we apply conservation of momentum to a very thin “slice” of time surrounding the collision, the total momentum of the two cars will not change very much and will be approximately conserved."

This makes intuitive sense to me, that the tiny force of rolling friction for say a pool ball collision isn't going to affect momentum conservation much. But I'm trying to find a F(internal)/F(external) expression of some kind to mathematically back up this idea, and I can't find anything.

Does J = F(net average) * delta t = delta p have any bearing on this?

I mean, in the sense of the fact that the breaking won't have a huge impact on the cars' velocities, this makes sense, but I'm looking for a mathematical expression to back it up. Is there one?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
The very fact that cars do not simply bounce off each other without any deformations shows you that car crashes are usually not described by elastic scattering processes. This would be great since then crashes wouldn't damage the cars at all ;-))).

[Edit: This argument is wrong. Momentum is indeed conserved in the inelastic collision, but of course not energy. @hilbert2 is right!]
 
Last edited:
But isn't the elasticity of a collision related to the conservation of energy, not that of momentum?
 
That's indeed true.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: hilbert2
gibberingmouther said:
But I'm trying to find a F(internal)/F(external) expression of some kind to mathematically back up this idea, and I can't find anything.

The ratio between braking distance and crush zone should be a good approximation.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: gibberingmouther

Similar threads

  • · Replies 52 ·
2
Replies
52
Views
4K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 77 ·
3
Replies
77
Views
6K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K