Minimum height of water to make the particle visible

Click For Summary
The discussion focuses on determining the minimum height of water required for an observer to see a submerged particle using Snell's law and normal shift. The initial approach involved calculating the height based on the normal shift formula, which resulted in an incorrect value of 40 cm, exceeding the container's height of 30 cm. The user questions the validity of their reasoning, noting that the normal shift formula is typically applicable for near-normal viewing angles. Responses confirm that the user's concerns are valid and suggest deriving a more general equation for the shift that accommodates larger angles. The conversation emphasizes the importance of understanding the limitations of the normal shift formula in this context.
palaphys
Messages
263
Reaction score
17
Homework Statement
A cylindrical vessel, whose diameter and height both are
equal to 30 cm, is placed on a horizontal surface and a
small particle P is placed in it at a distance of 5.0cm
from the centre. An eye is placed at a position such that
the edge of the bottom is just visible (see figure 18-E8).
The particle P is in the plane of drawing. Up to what
minimum height should water be poured in the vessel
to make the particle P visible ?
Relevant Equations
snells law
1759721321523.webp

I know how to solve this using Snell's law and geometry, but I thought of a different approach- using normal shift
Firstly here is a diagram for the geometry of the situation:
1759721583683.webp

Now somehow, if we raise the image of P to a height of ##h## from the bottom, it will be right on the line of sight of the observer, so technically he would be seeing that. We know that if we fill the beaker with water, the object will appear at a higher position.
so if we use the formula for normal shift, assuming the length of the water column to be ##x##,
## 10=x(1-3/4) ## (assuming refractive index of water to be 4/3)
## x= 40cm##
which is wrong, I think due to the following reasons
i) I remember that this formula was derived only for near normal viewing. but here it is not the case.
ii)the height of the container itself is only 30cm, then how would we fill it up to 40cm

My question is, are my reasons valid? are they conceptually sound?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Your reasons for why it doesn't work are valid. Note that the observing eye as shown will still see the bottom of the container shifted up. There is a more general equation that you can derive for that shift that works for lines of sight appreciably away from the normal. See if you can derive it. Check your work by showing that it reduces to the "normal shift" equation when the angle away from the normal is small.
 
Think about how light bends when it passes from water to air (refraction).
 
realJohn said:
Think about how light bends when it passes from water to air (refraction).
As stated in post #1, @palaphys knows how to solve the problem. The question being asked of the forum is why the suggested alternative method does not work.
An interesting corollary is that a flat base viewed through a uniform depth of water does not appear flat. So what shape does it appear to be?
 
Last edited:
haruspex said:
As stated in post #1, @palaphys knows how to solve the problem. The question being asked of the forum is why the suggested alternative method does not work.
Thank you.

Normal shift doesn't necessarily sound correct to me. This would only work when you're looking straight down. Just use both Snell's law and geometry.
 
Thread 'Chain falling out of a horizontal tube onto a table'
My attempt: Initial total M.E = PE of hanging part + PE of part of chain in the tube. I've considered the table as to be at zero of PE. PE of hanging part = ##\frac{1}{2} \frac{m}{l}gh^{2}##. PE of part in the tube = ##\frac{m}{l}(l - h)gh##. Final ME = ##\frac{1}{2}\frac{m}{l}gh^{2}## + ##\frac{1}{2}\frac{m}{l}hv^{2}##. Since Initial ME = Final ME. Therefore, ##\frac{1}{2}\frac{m}{l}hv^{2}## = ##\frac{m}{l}(l-h)gh##. Solving this gives: ## v = \sqrt{2g(l-h)}##. But the answer in the book...