How Do Gun Laws Influence College Shootings?

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The discussion centers around the relationship between gun accessibility and violent incidents, particularly in educational settings. Participants express concerns that easier access to firearms increases the likelihood of tragedies involving mentally ill individuals. While some argue that banning guns could reduce violence, others contend that determined individuals would find alternative means to commit harm. The conversation also touches on the cultural context of gun ownership, with differing views on whether more guns lead to more violence or if violent behavior is the primary issue. Ultimately, the debate highlights the complexities of gun control and its implications for safety in society.
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I thought there would be tonnes of postings on this from you US and Canadian guys - particularly as it happened in an educational institution.

Something else which I thought would spark more discussion in the news - again, I haven't heard much in the world news - is that he seems to have got some inspiration for killing from video games: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5346110.stm
 
I don't think there is much else to say.

The individual (gunman) seemed to be mentally ill and alienated. Somehow he decided to start shooting people, but since he committed suicide, we are only left to speculate as to the motive.

This can happen anywhere, and does periodically occur. It has happened periodically in the US, even in the local area. Access to guns certainly increases the probability that someone with mental illness could act out in society and kill people. That seems a price that some societies are willing to accept. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
yeh but without the guns how can we defend ourselfs from people with mental illnesses, especially violent ones, with guns?

/sarcasim

:biggrin:
 
If there was no guns, we wouldn't have to worry about people with mental illnesses with guns.
 
Anttech said:
yeh but with the guns how can we defend ourselfs from people with mental illnesses, especially violent ones, without guns?

/sarcasim

:mad:

Say what?!

Just playing. :)
 
JasonRox said:
If there was no guns, we wouldn't have to worry about people with mental illnesses with guns.

I can't argue with that, but, since guns have been invented and are actually manufactured in large quantities, how do you propose we get rid of all the guns?

- Warren
 
I'm sure even without guns they would find another way to make "their point".
 
chroot said:
I can't argue with that, but, since guns have been invented and are actually manufactured in large quantities, how do you propose we get rid of all the guns?

- Warren

I never said I had a proposition.
 
  • #10
You're right, scorpa. You can kill people pretty effectively with thrown kitchen knives, chlorine gas made from bleach and vinegar, you name it.

- Warren
 
  • #11
It's not hard for someone that is determined to get a gun to get hold of one illegally. Where the banning of guns would stop most normal people from getting a gun, it more than likely wouldn't stop a "nutter" as you call them.
 
  • #12
chroot said:
You're right, scorpa. You can kill people pretty effectively with thrown kitchen knives, chlorine gas made from bleach and vinegar, you name it.

- Warren

Yes that is what I am getting at. It's not the gun that gets up by itself and decides to go on a rampage...it's the idiot using it. If guns were banned it would be just as easy for them to poison (but that's not as flashy), make a bomb, throw knives...ect. Yes guns are dangerous in the wrong hands but unfortunately so are a lot of things.
 
  • #13
Evo said:
It's not hard for someone that is determined to get a gun to get hold of one illegally. Where the banning of guns would stop most normal people from getting a gun, it more than likely wouldn't stop a "nutter" as you call them.
So would you say the world would be safer if most people had guns, or just a few dettermined nutters?
 
  • #14
Anttech said:
So would you say the world would be safer if most people had guns, or just a few dettermined nutters?
How many people own guns is not an issue, it's the intent of the individual user. I don't need to worry about the overwhelming majority of gun owners, only the "few determined nutters" and that's so rare, I'm more likely to die from slipping in my shower, but I'm not going to call for a ban on showers. I can only think of one person that I personally know that owns a gun, and it's an antique shotgun he inherited. Do you think that every American buys guns just because we can?
 
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  • #15
It was totally hypothetical question and nothing to do with America. I just wanted to know what your oppinion was. I have heard some people argue that it would be safer, I was wondering if that applied to you.

However since you brought it up, I would say that it is a matter of how many people owe guns, the less who do the less chance that someone is going to get shot, by someone with a gun.
 
  • #16
Anttech said:
However since you brought it up, I would say that it is a matter of how many people owe guns, the less who do the less chance that someone is going to get shot, by someone with a gun.
Someone intent on commiting violence would just use another means. We're talking about someone obviously disturbed. People don't become violent just because they own a gun.
 
  • #17
Anttech said:
So would you say the world would be safer if most people had guns, or just a few dettermined nutters?

Oh, give me a break. Guns do not make the world less safe, violent people do. Is that so hard to grasp?

A gun is a tool that can be used for good, or can be used for evil.

So I guess before the advent of the gun crime was nonexistant, right?

We all own knives, do we go around slashing at people? No, because it too is a tool that can be used for good or bad.
 
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  • #18
Anttech said:
However since you brought it up, I would say that it is a matter of how many people owe guns, the less who do the less chance that someone is going to get shot, by someone with a gun.

Where I come from I don't know anyone who does not own a gun, in fact I would imagine the average number of guns in each household would be about 5...some a few less but many a lot more (and i mean alot!) and no one has ever been shot, hurt, killed, or maimed in anyway. People are careful and bad things don't happen, it's when some psychopathic nutjob gets ahold of them that things become problematic, but like was mentioned multiple times before in this thread if they did not have guns they would find something else to get the job done. Haha got to love that old saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" :smile:
 
  • #19
Police just arrested some teens in Green Bay, Wisconsin for plotting to attack their high school a la Columbine. They were planning to shoot people they didn't like, but their main plan was to set off bombs near the rest rooms.

As we see from the daily news from Iraq, bombs can be more effective than guns if all you want to do is kill people.
 
  • #20
scorpa said:
Haha got to love that old saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" :smile:
Actually, bullets kill people.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
 
  • #21
Math Is Hard said:
Actually, bullets kill people.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Haha you got me there! :-p
 
  • #22
Guns don't make the world less safe... so um... why do we have them?

In Canada, almost no one has guns. They aren't common like they are in the US. It's not going to stay that way because of our neighbours who won't let them go. Who are you defending yourself from that require a gun? Umm... the British left a lllllooooonnnnnngggggg time ago.
 
  • #23
Yeah, but George Bush replaced the british!

We have guns because we can, and its our right to. You take away my rights, and I'll shoot you. That's why we have the right to own guns.

Why have them? Skeets, hunting, law enforcement, personal protection...to name a few. Shooting is a sport you know, ever watch the olympics?

Our choice of guns is ours, not Canadas, nor the Uk's.
 
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  • #24
In order to analyze the gun issue, just think of the boundary conditions.

If no one had a gun, would the world be a safer place? If every person had a gun, would the world be a safer place?

Perhaps I'm a left wing extremist, but I think guns should be illegal.

Maybe I'm naive, but where I live I do not know one person/family with a gun. And if I found out one of my friends or their parents kept a gun/guns, I would automatically think less of them.

It's funny, I was watching this PBS special on blogs influencing politics in the US, and the narrator said something along the lines of "the sterotypical blogger is a young, radical left winger". I burst out laughing because I'm a blogger and that stereotype IS me.
 
  • #25
cyrusabdollahi said:
Why have them? Skeets, hunting, law enforcement, personal protection...to name a few. Shooting is a sport you know, ever watch the olympics?

You missed one. Shooting people when you're mad because we can.
 
  • #26
  • #27
A little bit off the debate, but I am a student of Dawson College and I felt like sharing my experience. It was one of the scarier moments of my life to know someone was on a shooting rampage and at any moment I could have found myself face to face with a killer while running out of the school. Fortunately I made it out safely, but unfortunately the only casualty happened to be someone I know...out of 10 000 people. I mean it's equaly unfortunate to lose anyone, but it's a different experience when you knew the person.

What I know about this Kimveer Gill from numerous news-castings is that he obtained all of his guns legally. Previously Being in the military probably facilitated his obtainment of rifles, pistols, and shotguns.
 
  • #28
  • #29
What are you even talking about? Use a knife to hunt...does that even sound reasonable when you say it outloud?


However taking the long view it appears that the gun supply does not have a significant impact on total homicides or suicides. (Since 1945 the handgun per capita rate has risen by over 350% and over 260% for all firearms.)

So, what was that you were saying?...
 
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  • #30
This entire notion of taking away guns to make the world safe is lunacy.

A culture of violence, which we have in America, is to blame. We have the highest crime rate in the entire world. NOT by guns, but OVERALL. THAT is the problem. So enough of this 'take away guns, take away guns' nonsense..:rolleyes:

Most guns are used in self defense.
 
  • #31
Harder to get away with murder these days. Deters a lot of people.

A little off topic, but noted poker writer David Sklansky in his book "Poker, Gaming and Life" opines that it is not the people that actually kill people that are to be despised, for they are sick (they would have to be to make such a terribly negative expected value decision). He says it is the people who would kill, but are afraid of the consequences, that are truly the most despicable people in the world.

I tend to agree.
 
  • #32
Did you see the FBI chart I linked to?

This crap about more guns = more violence is flat out FALSE!
 
  • #33
Gary Kleck School of Criminology and Criminal Justice Florida State University Tallahassee said:
Probably fewer than 2% of handguns and well under 1% of all
guns will ever be involved in a violent crime. Thus, the problem
of criminal gun violence is concentrated within a very small subset
of gun owners, indicating that gun control aimed at the general
population faces a serious needle-in-the-haystack problem.

http://rkba.org/research/kleck/point-blank-summary
 
  • #34
scorpa said:
Yes that is what I am getting at. It's not the gun that gets up by itself and decides to go on a rampage...it's the idiot using it. If guns were banned it would be just as easy for them to poison (but that's not as flashy), make a bomb, throw knives...ect. Yes guns are dangerous in the wrong hands but unfortunately so are a lot of things.

Guns make it much easier though. Way more damage can be caused with little skill or practice by someone with a gun than someone with a bunch of knives.


It would be impossible for Canada to get rid of guns. I think I know more people with guns than without, but I don't know a single person who owns a gun for protection from other people. Hunting, trap/target shooting, and general rural use (rabid animals, pest control, opening cans, doorstops), or self defense in the bush, but not for protection from other people. Only the target shooters have handguns, and these are olympic style ones that stay locked in cases when not in use.
 
  • #35
Homicides commited with guns has been dropping drastically in the US. If "more guns equals more murders", why the astounding drop?

Notice anything about the huge spike in gun homicides in the late 80's through early 90's commited by the age group 14-24? Notice this spike coincides with "gangsta rap"? I thought that was interesting.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1595/weapagepa4.gif
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm
 
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  • #36
Evo said:
Homicides commited with guns has been dropping drastically in the US. If "more guns equals more murders", why the astounding drop?

Notice anything about the huge spike in gun homicides in the late 80's through early 90's commited by the age group 14-24? Notice this spike coincides with "gangsta rap"? I thought that was interesting.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1595/weapagepa4.gif
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm

It's like I said, it's more of a cultural problem than 'gun's themselves. Thanks for the data. :-p
 
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  • #37
cyrusabdollahi said:

Um... that's still VERY large.

It says well under %1, so let's say it's 0.5%. That's well under 1%, in fact it's half of it!

From the comment above, it says that most people have like on average 5 guns in the household. Let's assume there are 100 000 000 (100 million) homes in the US. I took 300 million divided by 3. Lots of people live single/double and in families, so I took rough guess dependent on that.

That means we have 500 000 000 guns in households alone! (Some people have more or less than 5 guns in their homes based on the reply above.)

Multiply that by 0.05 (5%) and we get 25 000 000 (25 million) guns involved in a crime! That certainly is a lot of crimes for one piece of equipment.

Now, let's assume that only in 50% of those cases the gun was actually shot. We now have 12 500 000 (12.5 million) cases where the gun was shot. Now, let's take another 50% for the cases that someone actually got wounded and that leaves us with 6 250 000 (6.25 million) cases where someone got wounded by a particular gun! Let's call these minor wounds.

Cutting off another 50% for serious wounds! We get 3 125 000 cases of serious wounds by a particular gun! Now, let's assume that it cost only $5000 to provide surgery and care (this is a VERY small amount compared to the actual cost). It would cost about 15 625 000 000 (15.6 billion) dollars for hospital bills! I'm not even including the cost of the minor wounds, justice system, time of police officers, etc... meanwhile only charging $5000 for surgery and care where it's probably more like $25 000 and that comes out to 78 125 000 000 (78.1 billion) dollars. So, it impacts the economy in a big way. You decide whether it's a good way or not. Be aware that during recovery they are not working, which I would consider not good for the economy.

Anyways, let's move on. Let's now take 50% of the serious wounds where someone actually gets killed. Therefore, 1 562 500 million people get killed! That's a large number! Sure not this many people get killed every year, but we can assume this many people get killed by guns every 10 years! (If we make the time span larger than 10 years, then we have to start considering the fact that guns are being made every year too.)

Therefore, 1 562 500 million people get killed!

In case you missed that.

Now, let's assume it cost $10 000 each for the funeral. So, that has an impact of 15 625 000 000 (15.6 billion) dollars! That's a lot of money.

Adding that up with the seriously wounded, we get 93.7 billion dollars. Now, round it up to 100 billion dollars to cover minor wounds and justice services.

Now, let's assume that out of the 1.5625 million people who died, at least 50% were going to live the next 10 years or more and the other half only 5 years. Heart attack or whatever reason.

Assume the average income of all of them was $25 000 a year. That's not a lot, but I have to consider the bias of those who are involved in guns might be more likely to be living in poverty (I don't stand by this bias opinion, but I'm adding it in because some people might argue it. Also, it makes the number smaller. So, if you don't want to be bias, I'd be happy not to be too.:-p )

Ok, since half are working for 10 years, we have 390 625 000 000 (390.6 billion) dollars of income for that half of people who died! Wow, that's a lot of cash.

Now, for the other half we get 195 312 500 000 (195.3 billion) dollars!

For the seriously wounded, we will assume that they were not capable of working for 6 months. Using the same salary, we get 19 531 250 000 (19.5 billion) dollars.

So, now income versus expenses (from above) gives us 609.9 - 100 = 509.9 billion dollars!

Wow, that's a big impact on the economy. Not sure about you, but that's a lot of cash. Maybe not compared to the national debt, but I'm sure Bush would love to have that disposable income.

It's affecting you in two negative ways. First, lots of people get injured and die. Second, the economy get affected.

Of course, it's in your CONSTITUTION. You have the RIGHT to have a gun. Just because you have the right to have gun, does not mean you should exercise that right or even keep it. It's a stupid thing to have in my opinion. What if they discovered a missing piece to the constitution, and it said, you can commit rape. It's YOUR right to rape someone. Should you exercise it? Obviously NOT!

You have no use for a gun besides things like law enforcement (which is not done in your home so can't use that as an excuse), military (also not in your home), hunting (not that many people hunt compared to the whole population and besides you can rent if you only hunt once a year or once in a lifetime), etc... where do we need a gun? Hmmm...

Note: The calculations are definitely crude, but keep in mind, I was cutting each number in HALF.
 
  • #38
In 2001, firearms were used in 63% of homicides, and 49% of homicides were committed with a handgun (78% of firearm homicides were committed with a handgun). (For a breakdown of weapon types used, see page 23 of the 2001 FBI Uniform Crime Report [1995-2001 FBI UCR's]). Although still unacceptably high, the U.S. homicide rate reached a 30 year low of 5.6 per 100,000 in 2001.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvmurd.html

63% of homicides are by firearms.

What if there were very little firearms? Possibly in those cases when harm wanted to be inflicted, they wouldn't get killed. Hence, bringing down the total homicides down and the percentage of homicides by firearms dramatically down.
 
  • #39
JasonRox said:
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvmurd.html

63% of homicides are by firearms.

What if there were very little firearms? Possibly in those cases when harm wanted to be inflicted, they wouldn't get killed. Hence, bringing down the total homicides down and the percentage of homicides by firearms dramatically down.

You are looking at a single year, so what? I just showed you a trend that guns have increased by 360% and crime rate has not rised significantly.

Although still unacceptably high, the U.S. homicide rate reached a 30 year low of 5.6 per 100,000 in 2001.

I just showed you data that answers specifically your statements, not just any ole stat from any arbitrary year.

Did you see the link to the graph right below what you quoted?

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/homage.gif
 
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  • #40
cyrusabdollahi said:
You are looking at a single year, so what? I just showed you a trend that guns have increased by 360% and crime rate has not rised significantly.



I just showed you data that answers specifically your statements, not just any ole stat from any arbitrary year.

Did you see the link to the graph right below what you quoted?

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/homage.gif
[/URL]

Um... there is a downward trend? That trend ended.
 
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  • #41
What, do you not see the black line?

I just gave you the graph about your comments.

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9813/gsupplyxf3.gif

What is there left to debate? Are you saying the FBI data is wrong?

I have shown you what the data says, but you choose not to believe it.
 
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  • #42
What if there were very little firearms? Possibly in those cases when harm wanted to be inflicted, they wouldn't get killed. Hence, bringing down the total homicides down and the percentage of homicides by firearms dramatically down.

Sigh.........You are talking about 2% of all guns used in homicide...taking away guns from the masses is pointless...how is this not clear to you?

Do you take all cars off the road because 2% are drunk drivers that kill people?
 
  • #43
JasonRox said:
Um... that's still VERY large.

It says well under %1, so let's say it's 0.5%. That's well under 1%, in fact it's half of it!

From the comment above, it says that most people have like on average 5 guns in the household. Let's assume there are 100 000 000 (100 million) homes in the US. I took 300 million divided by 3. Lots of people live single/double and in families, so I took rough guess dependent on that.

That means we have 500 000 000 guns in households alone! (Some people have more or less than 5 guns in their homes based on the reply above.)

So what? What's your point of this? Yes, people own guns. Where do you think those guns are kept? Why are you so scared of people owning guns?

Arg, that post is way too long, and filled with way too much junk to comment fully. Stop making up arguments. Did you pull every number out of thin air? That was absurd!

Of course, it's in your CONSTITUTION. You have the RIGHT to have a gun. Just because you have the right to have gun, does not mean you should exercise that right or even keep it

You should learn what it means to have your rights taken away from you, hint hint: what YOU are trying to do here. Read what you just wrote, does that make sense to you? Just because you have a right does not mean you should exercise it or even keep it...so what should I do with it, hang it on a wall read what my 'rights' really arnt? :smile:...aye caramba.
 
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  • #44
  • #45
Even better! (But I do know it does have the highest overall crime rate of the industrialized world).
 
  • #46
"... overall highest reported crime rate ..."
 
  • #47
I'm with cyrusabdollahi. The proposition that number of guns owned is correlated with number of handgun crimes is refuted by the FBI statistics; you can't explain a steady or declining trend by a linearly increasing one, any more you can do it the other way around.

On the other hand the US does have a high overall crime rate. Are there any correlations between the occurence of handgun crimes with occurrence of crimes of all kinds?
 
  • #48
More importantly, how many of those guns used in crimes are legal? If those guns are illegal, how does stopping citizens from legal ownership solve the problem? It does not.
 
  • #49
"Overall crime rate?" Between insurance claims, "casualty and theft losses" on income tax forms, and who knows what other bookkeeping tricks there are, might be a bit difficult to establish a "real" rate for crimes against property to compare to a "reported" rate for crimes against property. Sticking to "violent" crime rates, crimes against other people, there's nothing all that statistically unusual.
 
  • #50
Overall as in both violent and nonviolent crimes. That was the first thing my criminal justice professor told us when I took the course.

The unreported figures you speak of is called the 'dark figure of crime.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_figure_of_crime
 

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