College drop out, Good choice educationally?

In summary: Your GRE scores may be a requirement for some graduate schools, but others may be more willing to consider a student with lower scores if the student has a strong academic record. The best way to find out is to ask around.There are many resources available to students who want to learn on their own, including online courses and books. However, be sure to research the resources you are considering before you start. It may be helpful to get input from professors who know you well.
  • #1
JonDrew
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I am a sophomore math and physics major who would like to go to study biological physics as a graduate student. My aim is not to go into the medical field, i.e. Hospitals, pediatricians etc. but my interest generally is to research ways to prolong the human lifespan.

Lately I have been thinking that my academic career is actually in the way of my education instead of helping it. I don't pay attention in lectures because I'm unimpressed with the level of instruction, and continually find OpenCourseware lectures to be much more informative than the lectures at my university. From what I understand the level of instruction drops while the corse #'s increase at my school so, as a consequence the thought of dropping out of college and studying the materials on my own has been increasingly intriguing me.

I am a very self-disciplined and self motivated person and have learned to teach myself things very well. With the money I save in tuition I could pay professors I liked to help me out when I get stuck on topics (or I could also find a grad student in my area to help me with this).

The idea of self-paced learning is something that really resonates with me for the ideas that are vaguely represented in the link below. And in the end, if I ended up finding that its to much for me to do it on my own I can just as easily get back into school because my GPA is relatively good, 3.6.

I would probably stay in school through out the next semester (Spring 2012 and possible Summer 2012) so that I can grab somethings for my toolkit before I say goodbye, e.g. some research for my resume and one last math corse with a professor who I really think will resinate with me.

My four questions are, realistically how good would my GRE subject scores have to be to get into good Graduate schools if I tried this method?
And does anyone have any tips for corse material i could use? Obviously OpenCourseware but books that are written for self education more then lecture based education?
Does anyone know of any research opportunities for non-matriculated students?
Any other general advice?

http://www.khanacademy.org/talks-and-interviews/v/sal-khan-video-lecture-on-digital-learning
 
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  • #2
JonDrew said:
I am a sophomore math and physics major who would like to go to study biological physics as a graduate student. My aim is not to go into the medical field, i.e. Hospitals, pediatricians etc. but my interest generally is to research ways to prolong the human lifespan.

Lately I have been thinking that my academic career is actually in the way of my education instead of helping it. I don't pay attention in lectures because I'm unimpressed with the level of instruction, and continually find OpenCourseware lectures to be much more informative then the lectures at my university. From what I understand the level of instruction drops while the corse #'s increase at my school so, as a consequence the thought of dropping out of college and studying the materials on my own has been increasingly intriguing me.

I am a very self-disciplined and self motivated person and have learned to teach myself things very well. With the money I save in tuition I could pay professors I liked to help me out when I get stuck on topics (or I could also find a grad student in my area to help me with this).

The idea of self-paced learning is something that really resonates with me for the ideas that are vaguely represented in the link below. And in the end, if I ended up finding that its to much for me to do it on my own I can just as easily get back into school because my GPA is relatively good, 3.6.

I would probably stay in school through out the next semester (Spring 2012 and possible Summer 2012) so that I can grab somethings for my toolkit before I say goodbye, e.g. some research for my resume and one last math corse with a professor who I really think will resinate with me.

My four questions are, realistically how good would my GRE subject scores have to be to get into good Graduate schools if I tried this method?
And does anyone have any tips for corse material i could use? Obviously OpenCourseware but books that are written for self education more then lecture based education?
Does anyone know of any research opportunities for non-matriculated students?
Any other general advice?

http://www.khanacademy.org/talks-and-interviews/v/sal-khan-video-lecture-on-digital-learning

Self-learning is an important skill, but in this economy, it does not replace college degrees. One reason is that college degrees credibly convey the information to employers that you are well-trained in your field, and that you paid good money for this training, so that you did not take it lightly.

On the other hand, self-study might be more efficient in the end and you may come out learning more, but when you think about the information asymmetry between the employer and the applicant, the lack of a college degree can cause huge lack of incentive to employ you, even if you actually are more skilled than the other applicants with a college degree.

It is a sad state of affairs, but getting a college degree has now become the Nash equilibrium, despite its inefficiency. Online degree programs are making efforts to fight this inefficiency, but the tradition is still to go to an actual college and get the degree, whether or not you learn much from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics [Broken])

BiP
 
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  • #3
To get into graduate school you need an undergraduate degree. It doesn't matter how good your GRE score is. If you don't qualify, you don't qualify.

If you're not getting that much out of lectures and think you can self-learn much more efficiently then you could try simply skipping the lectures and using the time for self-directed learning. No one takes attendence at these things anyway.

I would however make a point of telling the administration at your school that you don't feel you're getting much out of the lectures. If no one complains, things are unikely to change for the better.
 
  • #4
Choppy said:
To get into graduate school you need an undergraduate degree. It doesn't matter how good your GRE score is. If you don't qualify, you don't qualify.

Actually, if you read the admission requirements for graduate study at many universities, there is a clause that states something to the effect: "If the department feels that a student has the ability to perform graduate level work...etc,"

I would be working off of one of these clauses, I am sure of that. I also understand that this path might arise many new challenges but I am looking more for insight on what these challenges might be and how to combat them.

I appreciate your input, thanks
 
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  • #5
JonDrew said:
I don't pay attention in lectures because I'm unimpressed with the level of instruction,

Many people would say it isn't going to be any better in grad school. :wink:

More seriously, even assuming you can learn enough on your own to get a high score on the GRE, where are you going to get letters of recommendation and research experience from?
 
  • #6
Speaking as someone who is directly involved in the selection of graduate students, I can say without any doubt whatsoever that if somebody applies for a PhD programme here without first having obtained an undergraduate degree, their application quickly finds its way into the bin.

You would be amazed at the number of such applications we get every year, even though our application guidelines state quite specifically that you need an undergraduate degree in order to be eligible for graduate study here.

You need to understand a couple of things:

  • there are quite literally thousands of people looking to get entry to graduate school in mathematics or physics each year;
  • this pool of applicants contains far more highly qualified students than there are available places;
  • few, if any, PhD advisers are going to take the risk of working with someone who didn't have the self-discipline to complete their undergraduate degree when there are so many other qualified applicants available to choose from;
  • even if there weren't qualified applicants available, why in the world would an adviser want the headache of dealing with someone who can't figure out that applying for graduate school without a first degree is, prima facie, a terrible idea?
 
  • #7
Don't drop out. Worse decision you'll ever make. You are a sophomore, meaning you have 2 more school years left and need to get some research positions in order to be considered by graduate school (I am still an undergraduate but my professors say that research is essential which is what I am basing those comments off of). Tough it out, do well, move on to what you want.

Also, you and I are practically the same in outlook. I am a physics (B.A.) major, chemistry minor, with an emphasis in biological science. My main goal is to eventually study human longevity and cancer in graduate school.
You won't get anywhere by quitting, so don't quit, instead just reinforce your knowledge by doing OCW and your university courses along side one another like I do. Helps with thinking differently! Please don't drop out, that would be a horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE, decision, especially at this juncture.
 
  • #8
jtbell said:
Many people would say it isn't going to be any better in grad school. :wink:

More seriously, even assuming you can learn enough on your own to get a high score on the GRE, where are you going to get letters of recommendation and research experience from?

Thanks for the contribution, but for my undergrad classes, Quantum, Thermo, Physical chemistry, etc. they are all offered online with high quality instruction from the top universities in the nation through OpenCorseware. Graduate class instructions aren't that abundant or, I would assume, easy.

My letters of recommendation would come from the professors I choose to work with. Better yet, I was thinking of possibly auditing or even taking a couple of courses at the university of my choice as a non-matriculated student in order to possibly get a professor from with in the university to write a recommendation for me. I know it sounds cheesy but I watched a video on youtube from Washington University of a student who did that, and now their a member of the department they applied to.

Research opportunities are something I haven't got a plan for yet, suggestions are welcome.
 
  • #9
coalquay404 said:
Speaking as someone who is directly involved in the selection of graduate students, I can say without any doubt whatsoever that if somebody applies for a PhD programme here without first having obtained an undergraduate degree, their application quickly finds its way into the bin.

You would be amazed at the number of such applications we get every year, even though our application guidelines state quite specifically that you need an undergraduate degree in order to be eligible for graduate study here.

You need to understand a couple of things:

  • there are quite literally thousands of people looking to get entry to graduate school in mathematics or physics each year;
  • this pool of applicants contains far more highly qualified students than there are available places;
  • few, if any, PhD advisers are going to take the risk of working with someone who didn't have the self-discipline to complete their undergraduate degree when there are so many other qualified applicants available to choose from;
  • even if there weren't qualified applicants available, why in the world would an adviser want the headache of dealing with someone who can't figure out that applying for graduate school without a first degree is, prima facie, a terrible idea?

Your insight is very helpful, in your comment you talk about Ph.D Programs but what about M.S. Program's are they similar? I would assume that they are still difficult to get into but easier than Ph.D correct?
 
  • #10
JonDrew said:
Your insight is very helpful, in your comment you talk about Ph.D Programs but what about M.S. Program's are they similar? I would assume that they are still difficult to get into but easier than Ph.D correct?

I can't speak for other universities but here the policy for masters candidates is the same as that for doctoral candidates: no relevant first degree, no entry. Even if they could gain entry, no scholarship committee is going to award them the funding to pay for it.

A career in physics is, as in life, all about playing the odds: your objective is to maximise your probability of achieving your goals. Even good students will find that the odds are already stacked against them by virtue of places in graduate school being a scarce resource. By not gaining a first degree, you're making the chance of being accepted in a reputable graduate programme vanishingly small.

I suspect that, deep down, you already know this but it might be helpful to hear it from someone else: what you're proposing is a thunderingly stupid idea. You've already got quite a good GPA and are presumably capable of obtaining a correspondingly good degree; why would you throw all that away simply for the purpose of making things harder for yourself?
 
  • #11
JonDrew said:
Actually, if you read the admission requirements for graduate study at many universities, there is a clause that states something to the effect: "If the department feels that a student has the ability to perform graduate level work...etc,"

That's true, and I'll give you an example that I personally know about where that get-out-of-jail clause was used. The applicant allready had a first class undergraduate degree from the Univserity of Sarajevo, but he couldn't prove it because (1) the war in Bosnia had reduced the university to a heap of rubble with his academic records somewhere at the bottom, and (2) so far as the Bosnian authorities were concerned he was an army deserter, so returning to sort out the paperwork would most likely have put him in front of a firing squad.

As an asylum seeker, He got accepted for a PhD at a top UK univserity - but only on condition that he sat their final undergrad exams at the end of his first year in grad school.

But if you want to try your luck and apply by that sort of route, don't let us stop you!
 
  • #12
coalquay404 said:
I can't speak for other universities but here the policy for masters candidates is the same as that for doctoral candidates: no relevant first degree, no entry. Even if they could gain entry, no scholarship committee is going to award them the funding to pay for it.

A career in physics is, as in life, all about playing the odds: your objective is to maximise your probability of achieving your goals. Even good students will find that the odds are already stacked against them by virtue of places in graduate school being a scarce resource. By not gaining a first degree, you're making the chance of being accepted in a reputable graduate programme vanishingly small.

I suspect that, deep down, you already know this but it might be helpful to hear it from someone else: what you're proposing is a thunderingly stupid idea. You've already got quite a good GPA and are presumably capable of obtaining a correspondingly good degree; why would you throw all that away simply for the purpose of making things harder for yourself?

You certainly raise a good point, but even since I was a young student I always felt that my learning experience inside of the formal education system felt very against the grain, and I've always been seeking alternative ways for myself to learn. I find that I am very receptive to OpenCourseware and other digital education platforms and would like to pursue the idea that they might be capable of being my primary source of education.

Might I ask you, as a graduate student selector, how it would look to the university your affiliated with if I had a one year gap in my education process from say, sophomore year to jr. year? I don't mean to seem like a masochistic learner rather I'm very passionate about learning. My curiosity really stems from how much more effectively, if more effectively at all, I can learn on my own. This idea is one that is full of wonder for me and is something I almost view as a really neat research project. So, if it just turns out to be what it looks like on the surface, an odd college kid trying some bizarre plan, then I reenlist in my undergraduate program (maybe even try to get into a better one) after a year, and the whole thing is just one big failed thought experiment. Would that look bad on my resume?

Add in: I make it seem like my school isn't ranked very well, its right outside US news top 100 so it wouldn't be hard to get back in but It's not a terrible school.
 
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  • #13
JonDrew said:
Might I ask you, as a graduate student selector, how it would look to the university your affiliated with if I had a one year gap in my education process from say, sophomore year to jr. year? I don't mean to seem like a masochistic learner but I'm very passionate about learning. My curiosity really stems from how much more effectively, if more effectively at all, I can learn on my own. This idea is one that is full of wonder for me and is something I almost view as a really neat research project. So, if it just turns out to be what it looks like on the surface, an odd college kid trying some bizarre plan, then I reenlist in my undergraduate program (maybe even try to get into a better one) after a year, and the whole thing is just one big failed thought experiment. Would that look bad on my resume?

Yes, terrible.
 
  • #14
AlephZero said:
That's true, and I'll give you an example that I personally know about where that get-out-of-jail clause was used. The applicant allready had a first class undergraduate degree from the Univserity of Sarajevo, but he couldn't prove it because (1) the war in Bosnia had reduced the university to a heap of rubble with his academic records somewhere at the bottom, and (2) so far as the Bosnian authorities were concerned he was an army deserter, so returning to sort out the paperwork would most likely have put him in front of a firing squad.

As an asylum seeker, He got accepted for a PhD at a top UK univserity - but only on condition that he sat their final undergrad exams at the end of his first year in grad school.

But if you want to try your luck and apply by that sort of route, don't let us stop you!

Thank you for your thoughts, I consider them a great contribution to my learning experience, judging by your post you seem very knowledgeable in academia. Would you be able to suggest where I might be able to find undergraduate research work as a non-matriculated student if I were to try this?
 
  • #15
coalquay404 said:
Yes, terrible.

That is surprising to me and seems so cookie-cutter, very often do students graduate in five years. I don't understand please elaborate. Does it look bad if student graduate in five years of straight undergraduate work? Or take a year off in-between graduate and undergraduate?
 
  • #16
Taking a year off is probably acceptable if you have a reasonable explanation for the hiatus. I am assuming that this break would look terrible on a resume because your reason for the break would be, to most review committees, inadequate.

Btw, I share in your frustrations :-/
 
  • #17
JonDrew said:
I don't pay attention in lectures because I'm unimpressed with the level of instruction, and continually find OpenCourseware lectures to be much more informative than the lectures at my university.
Most professors including those who you see on OpenCourseware were not trained to be educators, they were trained to be, physicists/mathematicians/engineers etc. So the idea of expecting someone in another college to have a better skill at lecturing is incorrect way of thinking.

You also have to remember your not the only person in the course, and different people learn at different rates, so the idea of sure you might fully understand everything going on. Someone else might be totally lost, so the lecture must slow down to accommodate for everyone.

By self learning you will also be missing out possibilities of making contacts with others who share your interests. Which could very well open up many doors down the road when you get a career.

The idea of not having a degree in this economy is ludicrous, couple this with the fact that only more and more people will get degrees, and things like PhD's are becoming commonplace, and its a recipe for disaster.

Many people end up going to college thinking they will get a PhD for instance, and stop after there bachelors degree, its just too much work for most people.
 
  • #18
Would it be reasonable for one to skip out of a certain course, and take the more advanced variant, if one were to have studied the prerequisite on one's own?

Say, one studying intermediate E&M with Griffiths' book, and then taking the course that uses Jackson's? Or studying from one of/a combination of the books by Kittel, Morin, and Klepper & Kolenkow, and then taking the more advanced classical mechanics class which uses the text by Goldstein?
 
  • #19
Mépris said:
Would it be reasonable for one to skip out of a certain course, and take the more advanced variant, if one were to have studied the prerequisite on one's own?

Say, one studying intermediate E&M with Griffiths' book, and then taking the course that uses Jackson's? Or studying from one of/a combination of the books by Kittel, Morin, and Klepper & Kolenkow, and then taking the more advanced classical mechanics class which uses the text by Goldstein?

As someone who has taken year long courses from Jackson and Goldstein, this is foolish. These problem sets give graduate students nightmares after theyve taken the course. Jackson crushes souls. I enjoyed the experience, but i benefitted from each and every gram of preparation. The gap between Kleppner and Kolenkow and Goldstein is enormous. Do not do this.

To the OP, your idea is foolhardy.
 
  • #20
JonDrew said:
That is surprising to me and seems so cookie-cutter, very often do students graduate in five years. I don't understand please elaborate. Does it look bad if student graduate in five years of straight undergraduate work? Or take a year off in-between graduate and undergraduate?

Unless there's a very good reason for it, seeing that a student has taken longer than usual to complete his/her degree is already a red flag; seeing that it was for a patently ridiculous idea like the one you're proposing is enough to get your application binned.

I know that you don't want to hear this, but that's just the way it is. Graduate applications committees already have far more applications from outstanding students than there are places. Often, a not inconsiderable portion of a department's funding is tied to completion rates of graduate programmes as well as the impact of graduate students' publications. I simply wouldn't take the risk of recommending that your application be accepted if you were to think that going off into the wilderness for a few years is sufficient preparation for a graduate programme.
 
  • #21
Mépris said:
Or studying from one of/a combination of the books by Kittel, Morin, and Klepper & Kolenkow, and then taking the more advanced classical mechanics class which uses the text by Goldstein?
Funny you should mention that because I did kleppner and morin on my own before entering uni and, with AP credit, skipped to intermediate mechanics and, while the primary text is taylor, they also give problems from goldstein when possible (variational principle, rigid body kinematics, oscillations chs for example) and I can't say I've found those problems to be as hard as the ones in kleppner (and the problems in taylor are a joke compared to the ones in kleppner for overlap subjects). The class has been very fine so far so I don't know how much of a gamble it is but here I have met many other freshmen taking intermediate mechanics as well so it is very common from what I have seen. I think in general ; however, a class that uses goldstein as the primary text tends to be a beginning graduate class in the US and requires you to have taken intermediate mechanics first.
 
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  • #22
JonDrew said:
Actually, if you read the admission requirements for graduate study at many universities, there is a clause that states something to the effect: "If the department feels that a student has the ability to perform graduate level work...etc,"

I would be working off of one of these clauses, I am sure of that. I also understand that this path might arise many new challenges but I am looking more for insight on what these challenges might be and how to combat them.

I appreciate your input, thanks

As others have already pointed out those are reserved for extreme circumstances such as already having a publication record in the field. An applicant who can't be bothered to take undergraduate classes does not fit the bill.

In contrast to coalquay404's commet, I think taking a year off is just fine. Lot's of successful applicants do this for an array of reasons (health, financial burden, travel, "finding oneself", etc.) and I think that's perfectly acceptable. I'd rather have a graduate student who's already done that and is now committed to his or her work than one who hasn't but needs to.

Finally, I would point out that lectures are only part of the university experience. Consider:
- labs
- making friends in the field
- making friends outside of the field
- networking opportunities
- colloquia
- clubs and teams
- library access to journals

One more thought...part of your plan appears to be assuming that you're going to find professors willing to work with or mentor you if you drop out. I can't speak for ALL professors, but mentoring an undergraduate student is not the most lucrative activity. I'd have to have a pretty strong reason to mentor someone who is not even an undergrad student.
 
  • #23
I know it's hard to take the advice from so many people who *did* their undergraduate degrees, so perhaps I'll chip in from a drop-out's perspective. I was in a similar position, felt that at today's day and age, I was learning more from buying the reference material and referring to online resources than actually paying for the coursework. I withdrew at the end of sophomore year, with plans to return to finish my BSc and proceed with my PhD after my financial situation has stabilized.

Would I recommend this to you?

Not in your circumstances. I'd suggest you just pick up the pace and finish up your degree. You don't have any pressing financial situations, and everything seems smooth-sailing from your description.

There are many things you have to consider, and many alternatives ways to challenge or stimulate yourself during your time in college that you must think of:

- Most important question to ask yourself: Can it be done? As others in this thread have already pointed out, the fact that your goal of leaving college is to go to graduate school is highly self-contradictory and counter-productive. On the other hand, I left college so I could do a desk job, less counter-productivity there.

- Getting family and social support for your decision. I think this was the hardest step for me, and it was exceptionally hard because all of my nearest friends/relatives, and as a result, my 2nd degree of contacts, come from exceptional academic backgrounds. You sound like a talented individual, and the more you are one, the harder it will be to stomach awkward situations where you have to explain in a social meeting what you do (at least during the time before you have eked out success outside of college). I don't think anyone can do it.

- The loss of valuable resources. The student status is incredibly powerful, let's you get away with lots of stuff, participate in lots of things. Especially software licenses, guest lectures, networking events, conferences, and thoroughly enjoyable competitions; I did the Putnam, MCM IMC and so on while I was in college, and still wish I can. (I missed out on this year's ACM and ICFP in the process.) These perks were monumental in shaping my life; the whole reason I took this plunge was out of mere coincidence that I took part in one of the Joint Mathematics Meetings, which helped me find my passion.

- Other things you can do. If the coursework feels trivial to you, just take the classes that challenge you and align more closely with your true interests. Also, find a way to avoid taking the required coursework, either by easing through it with transfer credits and doing them at another accredited institution where it's cheaper. I changed my mind about feeling that I could learn more by myself than at college after I actually spent a whole half a year outside, learning on my own. There are many tiny pieces of wisdom passed on during lectures that would take you weeks, if not forever, to uncover on your own. I don't know about medicine, but this is particularly true in quantitative finance (where I am involved in now).

- Networks. Having professors more intelligent and experienced than myself was something I took hugely for granted. If I had stayed on longer, I would definitely have spent more time getting to know more of them, because many times now I wish I could just ask professor A who was teaching course A' how to solve a problem that I'm facing. Something esoteric like programming a FPGA is an easy skill to find in a university, but really hard to find outside of it. Except in the outside world, you're the consultant's wet dream; it will cost $. In university, you can get away with a casually-worded email to a professor. Moreover, college is a great place to find other philosophically-burnt-out undergrad or grad students like yourself (or myself), who are great source of free labor and companionship. I lost touch with many of them since leaving college, and the growth of my networks has since declined. I had this disgusting overconfidence that I couldn't find the people I needed to solve the problems I had to deal with, but the truth is, everyone in college is equally as talented as you are, and you can always find a way to leverage their specializations to your advantage - be it to pick up a needed skill, or to write/review a small body of code in a language that you are unfamiliar with.
 
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  • #24
Mentalist said:
Don't drop out. Worse decision you'll ever make. You are a sophomore, meaning you have 2 more school years left and need to get some research positions in order to be considered by graduate school (I am still an undergraduate but my professors say that research is essential which is what I am basing those comments off of). Tough it out, do well, move on to what you want.

Also, you and I are practically the same in outlook. I am a physics (B.A.) major, chemistry minor, with an emphasis in biological science. My main goal is to eventually study human longevity and cancer in graduate school.
You won't get anywhere by quitting, so don't quit, instead just reinforce your knowledge by doing OCW and your university courses along side one another like I do. Helps with thinking differently! Please don't drop out, that would be a horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE, decision, especially at this juncture.

My original plan was to do a chemistry major along with my physics major, I still plan on getting a chem. minor too, I almost have it complete. I don't know what year student you are but what chem. classes have you taken or do suggest taking?.

Have you done any research yet? did you like it? dislike it?

Your major sounds B.ad A.ss, mine is a bunch of B.S. though. heh
 
  • #25
meanrev said:
Would I recommend this to you?

Not in your circumstances.

Thank you for the thoughtful post, It is really contributing to my decision. But A large part of my frustration is that those little "insight's" you get in lectures are not coming from my lectures nearly as much as they are coming from time spent watching OpenCourseware's. Not to sound bashful but, I know relativity better than my physics professor and repetitively I feel like "come on, I am paying for this!" while these other more insightful lectures are free.

I don't know how many OCW's are offer for quantitative finance but I can venture a guess that it is very few, I can see this making your self-education very difficult but physics lectures are abundant and all over the internet, for free. I really feel that I am already learning the material on my own so I am saying "hey, why not just learn it on my own then."

Your right I would miss out on a lot of college experiences but I would also gain a few by returning home to continue my studies, I still have strong relationships with people who are very good influences upon me back home (not just Mom and Dad), so there is a give and take to that argument.

I have actually already talked this over with my parents about a week ago, they were apprehensive but very supportive, they know I have never enjoyed formal education. (They were the ones who watched me grow up as the youngster who refused to get on the school bus in the morning.) Personally I think this is the future of education, I really almost view it as taking a step in the self education direction before the rest of the world does.

The only thing is though, the rest of the world hasn't done it, and that's why I think it seems so bizarre on the surface.
 
  • #26
JonDrew said:
Thank you for the thoughtful post, It is really contributing to my decision. But A large part of my frustration is that those little "insight's" you get in lectures are not coming from my lectures nearly as much as they are coming from time spent watching OpenCourseware's. Not to sound bashful but, I know relativity better than my physics professor and repetitively I feel like "come on, I am paying for this!" while these other more insightful lectures are free.

I doubt that you know relativity better than your professor.

Keep in mind you are also paying for a certificate that says you were able to deal with the beauracracy of getting an undergraduate degree and are therefore likely to survive worse beauracracy as a grad student.

Your ideas about these things are rather naive, I think.
 
  • #27
ZombieFeynman said:
I doubt that you know relativity better than your professor.

Keep in mind you are also paying for a certificate that says you were able to deal with the beauracracy of getting an undergraduate degree and are therefore likely to survive worse beauracracy as a grad student.

Your ideas about these things are rather naive, I think.

My professor's specialty is Biophysics and a good Biophysicist at that, which is cool because that's what I am planning I want to go into. But I do understand relativity better than my professor and its very apparent, not just a speculation. Quantum and other topics are a very different case, but relativity I really do. Most the students in my class would probably agree on that they do too.

I am not likely to survive bureaucracy, I admit that, I have close to zero tolerance for it. Like,

lim f(Me) = 0
Me-->bureaucrate

Me being the variable as a function of tolerance.
 
  • #28
JonDrew said:
My original plan was to do a chemistry major along with my physics major, I still plan on getting a chem. minor too, I almost have it complete. I don't know what year student you are but what chem. classes have you taken or do suggest taking?.

Have you done any research yet? did you like it? dislike it?

Your major sounds B.ad A.ss, mine is a bunch of B.S. though. heh

I am more personable than most, and I consider myself rather slow because of my own speed of processing power isn't on par with the other young adults. But I was able to get a research in the chemistry department of trying to understand catalysts better for many medical applications, etc... I got the position as I was wondering around one day, laughing at posters, and asking one of the chemistry instructors who I took for general chemistry about bacteria wavelengths. A few discussions later, I was talking about catalysts because I had been reading a bunch of papers on the web about catalysts, etc..., and I had a few ideas of my own from the reading. He introduced me to another professor that was dealing with catalysts and was looking for an undergraduate junior chemistry major, but I guess after meeting me and seeing my level of interest, decided he didn't. I felt jolly obviously because (1), I don't think I am smart rather slow (to which I have been told I was, and I am more of a slower thinker anyway), (2), I was still a freshman at the time and had no idea catalysis behavior as an inorganic chemist or organic chemist.

Long story short, I was able to undertake some research over the winter and then got a grant for summer research to which I became ecstatic. I now believe in the slow tortoise wins the race phrase I heard all my life. I still do research and I primarily am involved with creating reactions under supervision by the professor, but he did say I don't need much supervision any longer and can just go in and begin my time spent.

The other research I plan on getting involved in is physics-based research to which I have to complete some upper-division physics courses that I am currently working on. That is another reason why I am using OCW because I am currently having trouble understanding some of the higher physics such as quantum mechanics (internet, free course) to which I am obviously not ready to take but I prefer a rough grasp than no grasp at all as I want to get into chaos research.

One fault which I believe is holding me back is my lack of aptitude in the grammar department. I am above average when it comes to sciences (not a genius or gifted in aptitude, I am more creative though), but below average when it comes to grammar even though I am a native english speaker. I guess I never really cared all too much for it as I felt if people understood me what was the purpose of knowing what a verb was exactly. I know how to speak it! That was my thoughts, but seeing as people tend to find it "uncouth" and more akin to some court jester speaking in tongues, I find myself having to undertake english composition 101 (not the actual course number). And so far so good, I am better at it now (compared to before), and using forums like this one helps.

But, I love the research I am doing and don't want to get kicked off even though I have been reassured in the sense of I am doing better than expected, that I won't, I still feel I am too inadequate given he wanted a junior chemistry major and I hadn't completed the second course in chemistry yet. But all is well, I know more now than I did in the winter which is surprising.

Find a position in research. The courses may not be to your liking but I always felt even if I thought I knew more, it'd be more wise to show it on tests and in good discussions with the professor but not in the sense of, "ha, ha! I am smarter and know more than you!" rather on a level that shows that you have an above grasp and interest in the material.
 
  • #29
If you cannot handle the bureaucracy of an undergraduate education, what makes you think you can handle the greater bureaucracy of an graduate education? Or the greater still bureaucracy of being a working scientist? Grant proposals, requests for telescope scheduling, committee work: this is part of the day to day life of a scientist.

I guarantee you that the graduate admissions committee will be asking exactly these questions.
 
  • #30
Mentalist said:
I am more personable than most, and I consider myself rather slow because of my own speed of processing power isn't on par with the other young adults. But I was able to get a research in the chemistry department of trying to understand catalysts better for many medical applications, etc... I got the position as I was wondering around one day, laughing at posters, and asking one of the chemistry instructors who I took for general chemistry about bacteria wavelengths. A few discussions later, I was talking about catalysts because I had been reading a bunch of papers on the web about catalysts, etc..., and I had a few ideas of my own from the reading. He introduced me to another professor that was dealing with catalysts and was looking for an undergraduate junior chemistry major, but I guess after meeting me and seeing my level of interest, decided he didn't. I felt jolly obviously because (1), I don't think I am smart rather slow (to which I have been told I was, and I am more of a slower thinker anyway), (2), I was still a freshman at the time and had no idea catalysis behavior as an inorganic chemist or organic chemist.

Long story short, I was able to undertake some research over the winter and then got a grant for summer research to which I became ecstatic. I now believe in the slow tortoise wins the race phrase I heard all my life. I still do research and I primarily am involved with creating reactions under supervision by the professor, but he did say I don't need much supervision any longer and can just go in and begin my time spent.

The other research I plan on getting involved in is physics-based research to which I have to complete some upper-division physics courses that I am currently working on. That is another reason why I am using OCW because I am currently having trouble understanding some of the higher physics such as quantum mechanics (internet, free course) to which I am obviously not ready to take but I prefer a rough grasp than no grasp at all as I want to get into chaos research.

One fault which I believe is holding me back is my lack of aptitude in the grammar department. I am above average when it comes to sciences (not a genius or gifted in aptitude, I am more creative though), but below average when it comes to grammar even though I am a native english speaker. I guess I never really cared all too much for it as I felt if people understood me what was the purpose of knowing what a verb was exactly. I know how to speak it! That was my thoughts, but seeing as people tend to find it "uncouth" and more akin to some court jester speaking in tongues, I find myself having to undertake english composition 101 (not the actual course number). And so far so good, I am better at it now (compared to before), and using forums like this one helps.

But, I love the research I am doing and don't want to get kicked off even though I have been reassured in the sense of I am doing better than expected, that I won't, I still feel I am too inadequate given he wanted a junior chemistry major and I hadn't completed the second course in chemistry yet. But all is well, I know more now than I did in the winter which is surprising.

Find a position in research. The courses may not be to your liking but I always felt even if I thought I knew more, it'd be more wise to show it on tests and in good discussions with the professor but not in the sense of, "ha, ha! I am smarter and know more than you!" rather on a level that shows that you have an above grasp and interest in the material.

I am actually an extremely diligent worker as well. I'm not sure what level of grammar your having trouble with or even if your just struggling with writing in general but, one thing that helps me a lot when I'm typing up reports is are speech to text compilers. I can have the computer read my own words back to me and then I can usually edit my papers in about 10 minutes, at the most.

Which OCW corse are you taking the Leonard Suskind one or some other one and I was also curious what is the difference between a quantum mechanics course and a quantum physics course? My intuition tells me quantum mechanics is from the chem. dept. and quantum physics is from the physics dept.

Why would they kick you off your research?
 
  • #31
There are two paths you can take through life.

The first path is for independently wealthy geniuses, who can study what they want when they want and disregard all of the rules.

The second path is for everyone else, and consists of jumping through the hoops that are set in front of you in the order that they are set in front of you.

If you attempt the first path and are *not* both wealthy *and* brilliant, you will be in for a world of hurt.
 
  • #32
Vanadium 50 said:
If you cannot handle the bureaucracy of an undergraduate education, what makes you think you can handle the greater bureaucracy of an graduate education? Or the greater still bureaucracy of being a working scientist? Grant proposals, requests for telescope scheduling, committee work: this is part of the day to day life of a scientist.

I guarantee you that the graduate admissions committee will be asking exactly these questions.

By what exactly do you mean bureaucracy? Because I guess I associate very strong connotations with that term. connotations like corruption, top down structures, restricted freedoms on expressing ones opinion (because expressing ones own opinion at the risk of making the "wrong" person angry is "dangerous"), and finally, opportunities being given to those with more political "pull" rather than those who are the most experienced or able.

Thats what bureaucracy means to me, please elaborate on what you mean as to ensure no semantics are left unexposed.
 
  • #33
TMFKAN64 said:
There are two paths you can take through life.

The first path is for independently wealthy geniuses, who can study what they want when they want and disregard all of the rules.

The second path is for everyone else, and consists of jumping through the hoops that are set in front of you in the order that they are set in front of you.

If you attempt the first path and are *not* both wealthy *and* brilliant, you will be in for a world of hurt.

I guess this is the exact stigma I find myself challenging at this point in my life.

Please elaborate on what a genius means to you.

My definition isn't someone who is outrageously more intelligent than everyone else but rather, it is a person who knows how to use the brainpower given to them at its maximum potential.
 
  • #34
JonDrew said:
By what exactly do you mean bureaucracy? Because I guess I associate very strong connotations with that term. connotations like corruption, top down structures, restricted freedoms on expressing ones opinion (because expressing ones own opinion at the risk of making the "wrong" person angry is "dangerous"), and finally, opportunities being given to those with more political "pull" rather than those who are the most experienced or able.

Thats what bureaucracy means to me, please elaborate on what you mean as to ensure no semantics are left unexposed.

that's exactly what happens in academia. what, you don't know about administrators being paid far more than faculty, about certain research directions being not hot so you have to do what's "hot" or face reduced funding, about petty squabbles from using "SOMEONE ELSE'S" microwave, about office politics? about papers being published simply because they're from a "hot" professor on a "hot" topic while its plain wrong? What about 80% of biomedical cancer research article conclusions being absolutely irreproducible even with the help of the original writers? That's in biomedical fields where you can actually do lots of experiments in medium budget labs, I wonder what's the rate in astro and HEP where there's a single instrument in the world that can do it and if you make [stuff] up that sounds plausible you literally cannot be refuted?

also, i guarantee you, after you do some Arfken and Jackson problems (being FORCED to do them, otherwise you get fired), you will at the very least strongly reconsider your love for physics, if not outright be crushed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #35
You should have focused on the word "wealthy" instead. :smile:

If you aren't capable of supporting yourself, you will have to get a job and do what someone else tells you to do. In some sense, part of the purpose of college and graduate school is to get you used to this while learning about your domain of interest.

You don't *have* to obey the rules. But if you don't, you have to be prepared to do everything yourself.
 
<h2>What are the benefits of dropping out of college?</h2><p>Dropping out of college can have a variety of benefits, depending on the individual's circumstances. Some potential benefits include avoiding student loan debt, saving money on tuition and living expenses, gaining work experience in a desired field, and pursuing alternative forms of education or self-directed learning.</p><h2>Will dropping out of college negatively impact my future career prospects?</h2><p>It's difficult to say for certain, as each person's career path is unique. However, dropping out of college does not necessarily mean the end of one's educational or career opportunities. Many successful individuals have dropped out of college, and there are alternative paths to success such as entrepreneurship, vocational training, or online education.</p><h2>What are the risks of dropping out of college?</h2><p>Dropping out of college can come with some potential risks, such as limited job opportunities, difficulty in finding employment without a degree, and potential societal stigma. It's important to carefully consider these risks and have a plan in place before making the decision to drop out.</p><h2>Is it possible to return to college after dropping out?</h2><p>Yes, it is possible to return to college after dropping out. Many colleges and universities have programs in place to help students who have previously dropped out to re-enroll and complete their degree. It may also be possible to transfer credits from previous coursework.</p><h2>What should I consider before dropping out of college?</h2><p>Before making the decision to drop out of college, it's important to carefully consider your reasons for doing so, your long-term goals, and potential alternative paths to achieving those goals. It's also important to have a plan in place for how you will support yourself financially and continue your education or gain work experience.</p>

What are the benefits of dropping out of college?

Dropping out of college can have a variety of benefits, depending on the individual's circumstances. Some potential benefits include avoiding student loan debt, saving money on tuition and living expenses, gaining work experience in a desired field, and pursuing alternative forms of education or self-directed learning.

Will dropping out of college negatively impact my future career prospects?

It's difficult to say for certain, as each person's career path is unique. However, dropping out of college does not necessarily mean the end of one's educational or career opportunities. Many successful individuals have dropped out of college, and there are alternative paths to success such as entrepreneurship, vocational training, or online education.

What are the risks of dropping out of college?

Dropping out of college can come with some potential risks, such as limited job opportunities, difficulty in finding employment without a degree, and potential societal stigma. It's important to carefully consider these risks and have a plan in place before making the decision to drop out.

Is it possible to return to college after dropping out?

Yes, it is possible to return to college after dropping out. Many colleges and universities have programs in place to help students who have previously dropped out to re-enroll and complete their degree. It may also be possible to transfer credits from previous coursework.

What should I consider before dropping out of college?

Before making the decision to drop out of college, it's important to carefully consider your reasons for doing so, your long-term goals, and potential alternative paths to achieving those goals. It's also important to have a plan in place for how you will support yourself financially and continue your education or gain work experience.

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