How a particle tells time (Holger Mueller et al in *Science*)

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter marcus
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Particle Science Time
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

This discussion revolves around the concept of how a particle can be linked to time measurement, specifically through the work of Holger Mueller and colleagues, which proposes a clock based on a particle's Compton frequency. The conversation touches on theoretical implications, interpretations of quantum mechanics, and the intrinsic periodicity of particles.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference the experiment conducted at UC Berkeley that connects time measurement to a particle's mass through its Compton frequency.
  • There is a proposal that this concept aligns with de Broglie's idea of "intrinsic periodicity," suggesting that particles have internal processes that function like clocks.
  • Donatello Dolce's work is mentioned, which interprets the relativistic behavior of particles in terms of periodic phenomena, positing that elementary particles act as reference clocks.
  • One participant expresses interest in the relationship between quantum mechanics and periodic phenomena, indicating a desire to explore these ideas further.
  • Another participant highlights the derivation of the Feynman Path Integral from the concept of periodic phenomena, questioning its surprising nature.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants show interest in the connections between particle behavior and time measurement, with some agreeing on the relevance of de Broglie's intrinsic periodicity. However, the discussion remains open-ended, with various interpretations and no consensus reached on the implications of these ideas.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes references to complex theoretical concepts such as the Feynman Path Integral and the implications of cyclic geometries, which may require further elaboration or clarification for full understanding.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in quantum mechanics, the relationship between time and mass, and theoretical physics may find this discussion particularly relevant.

marcus
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
Messages
24,752
Reaction score
795
Bee Hossenfelder blogged about this. Too beautiful not to share.
http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2013/01/how-particle-tells-time.html

The experiment was done at UC Berkeley

Precise measurement of Compton frequency of particle

This was published online 10 January 2013 by Science journal.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/early/2013/01/09/science.1230767

A Clock Directly Linking Time to a Particle's Mass
Shau-Yu Lan1, Pei-Chen Kuan1, Brian Estey1, Damon English1, Justin M. Brown1, Michael A. Hohensee1, Holger Müller1,2,*


1Department of Physics, 366 Le Conte Hall MS7300, University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA.
2Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, One Cyclotron Road, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA.
*To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: hm@berkeley.edu

ABSTRACT

Historically, time measurements have been based on oscillation frequencies in systems of particles, from the motion of celestial bodies to atomic transitions. Relativity and quantum mechanics show that even a single particle of mass m determines a Compton frequency ω0 = mc2/ ħ, where c is the speed of light and ħ is the reduced Planck constant. A clock referenced to ω0 would enable high-precision mass measurements and a fundamental definition of the second. We demonstrate such a clock using an optical frequency comb to self-reference a Ramsey-Bordé atom interferometer and synchronize an oscillator at a subharmonic of ω0. This directly demonstrates the connection between time and mass. It allows measurement of microscopic masses with 4 × 10−9 accuracy in the proposed revision to SI units. Together with the Avogadro project, it yields calibrated kilograms.
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Is this the "intrinsic periodicity" idea of de Brogle suggesting that inside the particle there was a periodic process that was equivalent to a clock? Donatello Dolce has published a few papers on this topic, but I haven't seen it much discussed elsewhere:
We interpret the relativistic quantum behavior of elementary particles in terms of elementary cycles. This represents a generalization of the de Broglie hypothesis of intrinsically “periodic phenomenon”, also known as “de Broglie internal clock”. Similarly to a “particle in a box” or to a “vibrating string”, the constraint of intrinsic periodicity represents a semi-classical quantization condition, with remarkable formal correspondence to ordinary relativistic quantum mechanics. In this formalism the retarded local variations of four-momentum characterizing relativistic interactions can be equivalently expressed in terms of retarded local modulations of de Broglie space-time periodicity, revealing a geometrodynamical nature of gauge interaction.
On the intrinsically cyclic nature of space-time in elementary particles
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1206.1140.pdf
 
Thank you Marcus, this is really interesting! :smile:The other day I was actually about to try to touch this issue in the thread about emergent time, but I did not feel I had thought I through enough. Very interesting, thanks again! And I think I have to read the paper bohm2 linked to as well! :smile:
 
bohm2 said:
Is this the "intrinsic periodicity" idea of de Brogle suggesting that inside the particle there was a periodic process that was equivalent to a clock? Donatello Dolce has published a few papers on this topic,

Yes. It is exactly the same. In all his papers Dolce's ansatz is that elementary particles are reference clocks and the flow of time is "ticked" by the internal clocks of the particles, depending on their kinematics. He interprets quantum mechanics from this "periodic phenomenon".

bohm2 said:
but I haven't seen it much discussed elsewhere:

On the intrinsically cyclic nature of space-time in elementary particles
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1206.1140.pdf

Please discuss the idea.

:zzz:
 
Last edited:
In the paper http://arxiv.org/pdf/1206.1140.pdf the Feynman Path Integral (FPI) is derived from the relativistic "periodic phenomena". Is this surprising?

"In a cyclic geometry, such as that associated to a “de Broglie periodic phenomenon”, there is an infinite set of possible classical paths with different winding numbers that link every given initial and final configurations. Thus there are many possible classical evolutions of a field from an initial configuration to a final configuration, which can interfere. The [classical] self-interference of a “periodic phenomenon” leads formally to the ordinary FPI"

Don't be :shy:.