To Americans: Opinion on our schools.

[Blahness]

For the sake of writing a feasible paper on the state of our public schools, I am requesting opinions with supportive information on the state of American public schools, either way(good/bad). Public school is defined as a school which is under control of some form of government, and is affected by the NCLB act, and is free for students to attend(paid for through taxes).

Put simply:

I'm doing a report. Say if you like or hate our public schools, what's good/bad about them, and what could be fixed/has been fixed recently.

Thank you.

(About topic title: If you're foreign, but know how our schools are, that's fine. I'm just saying it deals with our schools.)

 

[marlon]

I know i am not an authority an American Schools (i hear there is a great difference in quality from school to school, so averages do not say much in the case of the US.) but as an addendum i would like to present to you the results of an international math/science aptitude test, executed by the PISA-organization in 2003. Download the results on this site

regards
marlon

 

[mattmns]

I think public schools are bad. I personally think elementary is probably the worst. Right now I can say that there is no way my kids will attent public elementary schools. One of the reasons I would not let my kids go into public elementary school is because I have seen too many elementary education majors, and the majority are terrible at, and hate, math, and they will teach a new generation to hate it.
I think a big problem with the schools is that everyone passes, even without knowing the materialm, I know I was. I remember hearing somewhere that this was because it is too detrimental to hold a kid back if he/she does not know the material.
Also, if your kid/s end up in special ed you can kiss their future good-by. My sister got straight A's in special ed classes, yet for some reason, she was never bumped up into more difficult classes.

 

[russ_watters]

I voted "good" because of what marlon said: quality varies greatly from school to school. Many public schools in southeastern PA are excellent. I tend to thing bad education is more the result of bad parenting than bad schools.

 

[marlon]

I tend to thing bad education is more the result of bad parenting than bad schools.

Wise words...i would add "bad motivation of students" to your list

marlon

 

[mattmns]

Motivation is very important. I guess I should not completely blame schools/teachers. I am majoring in math education, and I have been reading about psychology, specifcally persuasion, as I think that is the first step to get someone to learn something. Knowing the best techniques in teaching math will not help at all if your students won't even take the time to try.

 

[Moonbear]

It's really hard to say. And when you say "average" or "good," what is that in comparison to? Private schools in the US? The equivalent of public schools in other countries? I don't think you get any better education in private schools, you just don't have the worst of the students attending private schools, either because they don't care enough about education to apply, or they do, but their application is rejected.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I picked average because of the vast difference between schools in different areas.
In regards to your report, if you can, you might want to focus on the public education system in your own area rather than nation wide. Or you could compare and contrast the public education systems of two different states. A good state to use as an example might be CA. For being one of the "richest" states in the country we have abominable public education. Spending on education, including teachers salaries and the like, is also one of the hottest political topics here at the moment.



edited for the poor quality of my education

 

[wasteofo2]

I live in a really rich neighborhood where all the kids have this immense pressue on them to do well, and as a result, most do. Very few of them actually learn very much, however. There are lots of kids who make sure to study for hours for any test, and do homework religiously, and as a result of their good study-habbits, preform very well in school. But they don't really care about school, they just know they've got to get good grades to get into a good college and get good money. Grades are the goal, not learning. I suppose that teaches people how to do what they need to do, and in the long run, most people don't need to know literature or chemistry or European History.

In that spirit though, I think our public schools really lack in teaching stuff that everyone needs to know. I'm still perplexed that personal finance courses aren't required; the public schools take us right up until college, when we'll have to live on our own and manage ourselves (to one degree or another), there should be courses that alert you to things out there in the real world, possibly in the place of some math course or something.

And, of course, our test scores are horrible. I think we don't really give a damn about stuff like that in America though...

 

[scott1]

What areyou comparing American schools with the one in China, Japan, Russia, Korea, and some parts of EUROPE(don't ask which) I think there good compared to ones in most places in the world

 

[Ivan Seeking]

While first starting my business, for about a year I worked for the State as a teacher/tutor. Due to behavioral or medical problems, and in a few cases due to learning disabilities, some kids can't attend regular classes. It was my job to provide private lessons or tutoring that would enable these kids to pass the final examinations for their grade year. I worked with grades 6-12.

Even within this small school district the quality of education varied greatly and mostly from teacher to teacher. Also, generally it was seen that the problem kids were simply passed from grade to grade. I had high school sophomores who were in my opinion working at about a fifth grade level [and worse] in math and English. This is an example of a test question for a sophomore that, for obvious reasons, I will probably never forget. When I saw this I think I nearly cried.

Mary wore a red dress.
Mary's dress was
red
yellow
green

On the other hand, the advanced students were surprisingly advanced. One student, a girl, was in a car accident while nearing the end of her senior year. I only worked with her for a few months, but as we discussed her assignments from her regular teachers, I could hardly believe the level of complexity esp. when compared to assignments for some of the other students. In depth analyses of historical issues, philosophy, and political issues were often required, and she was no slouch in math either. All in all she clearly had received a very good education.

So to me the most striking aspect of this experience was the contrast. Teachers and students were found that would make anyone proud, and other students were simply passed along as a matter of practice; to the point of being a joke. No doubt, at least a few of the teachers were just doing time and were obviously burned out which is always bad for the students.

 

[ShawnD]

I live in a really rich neighborhood where all the kids have this immense pressue on them to do well, and as a result, most do. Very few of them actually learn very much, however. There are lots of kids who make sure to study for hours for any test, and do homework religiously, and as a result of their good study-habbits, preform very well in school. But they don't really care about school, they just know they've got to get good grades to get into a good college and get good money. Grades are the goal, not learning. I suppose that teaches people how to do what they need to do, and in the long run, most people don't need to know literature or chemistry or European History.

Being in chemistry I can relate to this. There's a huge difference between doing well in theory classes and doing well in the lab. The ones who really understand the theory will walk into the lab, go through an entire procedure without hesitation, and get good results. The ones who just memorize things for theory are constantly wandering around asking "do I do this?", "what is this for?", "how do I _____?" and it annoys everybody else. Then there are the ones who are good with practical things like following a procedure to a T, but when asked why they are doing it, they have no idea why.

Is this what people are talking about when they say things like "standardized tests are total BS"?

 

[bomba923]

I picked average because of the vast difference between schools in different areas.
In regards to your report, if you can, you might want to focus on the public education system in your own area rather than nation wide. Or you could compare and contrast the public education systems of two different states. A good state to use as an example might be CA. For being one of the "richest" states in the country we have abominable public education. Spending on education, including teachers salaries and the like, is also one of the hottest political topics here at the moment.
edited for the poor quality of my education

Throwing more money at the teachers' union will not improve public education.
Apparently California has yet to learn this

What really disappoints me is that, among the teachers who strike/petition for higher wages, are many teachers who don't teach---->meaning, they just give students A's for effort, party all the time in class, just slack off on the students, and do not even bother with academics.

From Thomas Sowell's Inside American Education:

Science is not the only field in which American students are lacking in knowledge and--more importantly--in the ability to tie what they know together to form a coherent chain of reasoning. Many American students seem unaware of even the need for such a process. Test scores are only the tip of the inceberg. Professor Diane Ravitch, a scholar specializing in the study of American education, reports that "professors complain about students who arrive at college with strong convictions but not enough knowledge to argue persuasively for their beliefs." As Professor Ravitch concludes: "Having opinions without knowledge is not of much value; not knowing the difference between them is a positive indicator of ignorance." In short, it is not merely that Johnny can't read, or even that Johnny can't think. Johnny doesn't know what thinking is, because thinking is so often confused with feeling in many public schools.

Raising wages for teachers who do not in an academically rigorous style will NOT improve student performance. You see,
A better paid teacher isn't necessarily a better teacher. Giving students more time or posters to illustrate George Washington's costume or cut out John Locke's face from an internet picture really won't teach them about Washington role in the American Revolution or John Locke's philosophy and contributions to later forms of government, etc.

What we do need to do is raise standards, write smarter and not-so-dumbed-down textbooks,---->and if possible, make sure that AP classes actually follow a college curriculum. Also somehow,...somehow...I have yet to develop a method unlike Prop74...-->fire the incompetent teachers, and raise wages/benefits for the good ones...you know, the ones that actually focus on academics.

Now, about national tests:
*OK...either eliminate the whole idea---->or if you test, then test EVERY grade level, middle school and above.

You see,
*It is not a calculus teacher's fault if a student enter the class not knowing how to multiply fractions or what a parabola is. The calculus teacher must teach calculus, not waste weeks on reviewing what should already be known.

Then again, how might student enter a calculus class? Simple! Wherever you have a trigonometry teacher who inflates grades, passes students solely on effort (even if they are truly incompetent), etc..etc...-->you have a calculus teacher in trouble!

Fortunately, a failed grade on a promptly assigned national test will quickly correct the situation and hold back the student in math until they develop some competence. Then again, we don't really have any specific year to test students in that area...so why not test students each year?

Either test students each year--->or scrap the idea of national tests.
---------------------------------------------
Btw, even if we do adopt national tests, how do we know that California will actually *enforce* them?

What areyou comparing American schools with the ones in the Middle East?I think there good compared to ones in most places in the world

Really? And you deliberately leave out "places" like China, Japan, Russia, Korea, and EUROPE?

 

[marlon]

Really? And you deliberately leave out "places" like China, Japan, Russia, Korea, and EUROPE?

Really, don't bother. I do not think that scott really knows what he is talking about. If so, i would like to ask him why he says the things he says. Based upon which criteria did he make those statements ?
Check out the PISA website if you want reliable comparisons. The site also explains (very important) HOW they have executed these math/science aptitude comparisons between different countries.
regards
marlon

 

[Blahness]

Meh, I said "bad" because I go to an "excelling" school, or a top 9.1% school, and I'm still not being taught.

Test questions are just short-term memorization skill practices, FFS.

 

[dgoodpasture2005]

I said bad... because of the way students are treated. I don't udnerstand the school system here in California. When students get in a fight, they are both suspended or expelled... and sent right back to school... to see each other and sit next to each other the enxt day. When at school, the authorities there should act as parent figures... now if your children get in a fight, do you give them a timeout... then let them go play with each oither again without apologizing?! Students are young, and need to be taught lessons. There should be more sit downs, and one on one's with students, to help them understand the importance of everything in school... because as mentioned earlier, parents don't always d the best job at this... well just becuase a kids parents didn't do a good job doesn't mean we just let him fail and blame the parents, someone's got to intervene along the lines and pick the kid up... else he's going to end up murdering your grandpa in the nearest am/pm 15 years from now... or raping and murdering your daughter for some crack money. Point is... schools need to be more responsible, and show the kids that they are there for them... and stop being so harsh. Maybe that's just the way my pulic school was... Need more support for the students, and more positive reinforcements... i had teachers tell me i was going to fail and be nothing... c'mon?!

 

[JasonRox]

Being a student at a popular center for students to become teachers, mainly Grade 1 to Grade 12 (High School Senior), I would have to say that we need to make it tougher to become a teacher.

To become a teacher in Ontario you need top notch grade to get to Teacher's College, which I guess makes it already hard. So, what's the catch?

Our school is inflated with wannabe teachers. Amazingly enough, the classes are dumbed down so much so that they can pass or get good grades. Our school is known for teachers, and it might because of good acceptance rates into Teacher's Colleges. Our academics are rock bottom, and this leads to dumb (maybe not always) students becoming teachers.

I'm a mathematics major and from what I read some books (biographies) or heard from professors, our math program doesn't relate one bit. I always hear about how a nightmare it is to finish an assignment because it is so hard because it is so rigorous. I have not yet experienced that and I am in a 3rd year Abstract Algebra course. The reason why it hasn't happened...

Our courses are filled with wannabe math teachers, and they dumb down the course material a lot. The profs don't feel the need to be organized (what I experience). Maybe it's because it is so easy, there is no need to look over things. Also, from I hear from profs or books, is that in some math courses, profs always stay organized because they themselves can get stuck on a difficult problem in front of the class, but staying organized avoids that from happening.

YES, they should separate us from wannabe teachers, but that's the smart solution, which smart solutions can not be thought upon by dumb (not always) people.

Well, that's all for now because the keyboard at school sucks too. The ones across campus are good though.

Note: These are very strong reasons on why I decided to transfer to one of the best schools for math. I want to go to Graduate School, not Teacher's College.

 

[Blahness]

I'm seeing two trends...
1. School quality is bad, and morality is low, and punishments are not happening.
2. School standards are slipping, leading to a lower-quality learning for everyone.
Is this true, or am I missing a trend?


Oh, yes, we can't forget separation of FAITH from SCIENCE, and the right of choice for students!


https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=99060
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/14/national/main577944.shtml

That, and the fact that tests get easier as time goes on, so as to show an "improvement" in teaching.

 

[Chi Meson]

I'm seeing two trends...
1. School quality is bad, and morality is low, and punishments are not happening.
2. School standards are slipping, leading to a lower-quality learning for everyone.
Is this true, or am I missing a trend?

This is not the trend.

1. School quality is varied. In fact quite polarized. Some school distracts are remarkably high quality; these tend ot be in affluent neighborhoord or wealthy counties. Schools are usually funded primarily through local taxes (it depends on the state/county, or in New England, "townships." School funding is just about the only tax that you can actually vote on. What would you do if you could vote on your own tax increase?

Places where schools are underfunded just happen to be the places that can least afford to raise taxes; coincidently these are the same places that have the hardest to teach students (many meanings and reasons for "hard to teach"). Such places are very likely to repell the best teachers: lower pay, larger classes, more difficult students. All together: horrible school.

In affluent neighborhoods property values are high and schools have so much money they toss in a swimming pool next to the gym. Students in general try harder because they have parents that care. Teachers would choose to work in this environment for less money, but this is where they get more! The pool of applicants for an opening is stronger, and the better teachers are hired. All together: fantastic school.

One other point: no matter how good any school is, people will still complain; that's human nature.

2. School standards hit a low during the eighties; they are rising at the moment (statistically, across the country). NCLB is having an effect and I am one of many teachers who is not decrying NCLB; it is flawed but not totally wrong.

 

[Blahness]

I see, variance in quality due to fluctuating economic statuses. Good explination for #1, and YES, people will ALWAYS complain about school, no matter how perfect it is*.

2. Let me make sure we're talking about the same standards here. Please tell me what standards you are talking about: Quality of material being taught, or quantity of students passing?

 

[scott1]

Really, don't bother. I do not think that scott really knows what he is talking about. If so, i would like to ask him why he says the things he says. Based upon which criteria did he make those statements ?
Check out the PISA website if you want reliable comparisons. The site also explains (very important) HOW they have executed these math/science aptitude comparisons between different countries.
regards
marlon

Your right I don't
at least we lern somthing at school

 

[Chi Meson]

2. Let me make sure we're talking about the same standards here. Please tell me what standards you are talking about: Quality of material being taught, or quantity of students passing?

Various standards by which students and schools are compared:
Average SAT or ACT scores
percentage of students who take the SAT or ACT tests (If only 20% of the students take the SAT, they are going to mostly be in the top 20% of their class; the more students that take the SAT, the lower the average will be).
The number of students taking AP (or IB) tests and scoring 3 or better.
The ratio of total AP and IB tests taken per total number of students
The percentage of students going on to 4-year colleges
The average number of credits taken during high school by graduating class (this one is way up.)
The percentage of "at risk" students who continue on to 4-year colleges ("at risk" students are nearly always identified as those who receive free or reduced price lunches; there is a good correlation)(this percentage is still too low, but it used to be essentially zero.
The dropout rate. (declining)
The literacy rate (improving)
variety of courses offered in high school

Although I can't verify each of these points for every locality across the country, and no I don't have any of the numbers handy (please feel free to fact check and inform me of any errors), I can definitely speak for my own locality, each of these indicators are showing steady improvement.

I happen to teach in Connecticut which is the first state to tighten the so-called "praxis"exam which is required of those who wish to become teachers. This exam is still absurdly simple, even after Connecticut more than doubled its length. Most states now are starting to use the Connecticut standard. THen the "Praxis II" test is in the subject area you wish to teach. The old praxis II in Physics was so simple; most of my honors students would pass it after one year of physics. The Connecticut Praxis is again more than twice as long and contains significantly tricky questions.

The first years of teaching are much more closely monitored these days, and weak teachers are more easily sifted out in the first two years. Even still, those teachers with tenure can't be fired unless they demonstrate extreme incompetence, and then only if the administration attempts in good faith to help that teacher and then only if there is a large enough pile of evidence of continuing incompetence. This is why we have to wait for attrition to free us of what I admit is a surfeit (look it up, it's a great word) of tired lousy teachers.

 

[ShawnD]

I'm seeing two trends...

Not sure about the US but Canada's declining system has only 1 trend - students cannot fail. 20 years ago, a student would be held back until he reached the level that was required; that could be 2+ consecutive years if the kid just didn't get it. Now kids are pushed through no matter what. Not reading, not understanding division, or simply being a moron are not enough to get held back. Both my brother and my cousin were held back in kindergarten because they weren't good at math. I was almost held back because I was deemed "unaware of his surroundings" meaning I never knew what day of what month of what year it was, and I couldn't remember anybody's name; however, I could read and do math at the level they expected. Think about that for a second. I was almost held back on the general principle that I was retarded but able to function; sort of like Rain Man. We'll never see tight quality control of students like that again it seems.

 

[rachmaninoff]

"unaware of his surroundings" meaning I never knew what day of what month of what year it was, and I couldn't remember anybody's name;

This sounds like my whole department...

 

[Gale]

my biggest complaint with american public school systems is that they seem to be continually catering to lower level students. my school, admittedly in a small town, had a lot of funding for "special ed" students, and very little for advanced students. I'm sure its difficult to distribute money and everything, but i have a hard time accepting large amounts of money being spent on the slowest or most disabled learners, who i feel have the least economical potential when the average and above average students seem to get significantly less funding. or perhaps, not significantly more...

 

[1123581321]

I go to a pretty good school, but i know that lots of schools suck, so i put average.

 

[AngelShare]

Bad, plain as that. That whole "No Child Left Behind" act is crap, it's flawed. How can "no child be left behind" when the schools that need help aren't getting any help?

My school is a perfect example of that. They teach you the same crap over and over again until you're almost ready to puke. They don't even push you at my school, you can do whatever the hell you want. My cyber school forces you to continue forward instead of dropping down classes in order to slack off while my public school would let you go from Algebra 2 back down to Math 76 just to get your final credit. The parents don't seem to care though, few seem to know what their child is actually doing.

My area just doesn't seem to be a good one for education period. Hell, the library may even get closed. Want a book? The nearest library is about an hour away if this one gets the boot.

 

[bomba923]

Ahh...the NCLB act

Frankly, I don't really see it as a major "problem",
But at least let's alter it this way :

"OK...you're child can *SIT* in that classroom, and ;absorb/participate in learning'...etc.
But...By no means can he/she lower standards, demand Extra funding, dumb-down the @!#@!$...etc...etc"

Fine. Enroll any kid into a public school classroom. But do NOT let just "any kid" (or a small learning-disabled minority) adjust the public school standards !
------------------------------------------
Although a bit "overgeneralized" , that is just a simplified point of view. What do you think, Angelshare?
------------------------------------------
Also,

my biggest complaint with american public school systems is that they seem to be continually catering to lower level students. my school, admittedly in a small town, had a lot of funding for "special ed" students, and very little for advanced students. I'm sure its difficult to distribute money and everything, but i have a hard time accepting large amounts of money being spent on the slowest or most disabled learners, who i feel have the least economical potential when the average and above average students seem to get significantly less funding. or perhaps, not significantly more...

Precisely!

But also, don't forget that lower standards have a dumbing-down effect of their own !. In a sense, competent elementary/early middle schoolers can become quite incompetent in high school.

However, I agree that we do cater TOO MUCH towards the "lower level"/special-ed students. Or by my definition, i.e., "those who fail by the 'already LOW' standards!"

I agree with you on your post...but just remember that low-standards have a dumbing-down effect of their own! And this can affect the majority of students/learners as well! ( )----->NOT only those who were innately "lower level" or special-ed.

(just wanted to add that low standards can affect the majority as well-->so you're not only looking at just a special-ed minority here !, but the large general majority of students attending public schools!)

But I do agree with you in your post, most definitely~~

 

[Pengwuino]

How can "no child be left behind" when the schools that need help aren't getting any help?

My school is a perfect example of that. They teach you the same crap over and over again until you're almost ready to puke. They don't even push you at my school, you can do whatever the hell you want.

Well there is your problem. Why piss money into a school whose teachers don't care in the first place? More funding won't change that, no teacher is going to like his/her job more because the library has more books or there are more computers available.

I got a real problem with the schools around here (and it seems to be this way all over the nation). Why do we need so many F'n psychologists/psychiatrists? I mean what "problems" do these kids have that require trained professional psychiatrists at their beck-n-call (sp?). Now of course, there are times when they are necessary but they literally promote these people as people who can help you in your "latest relationsihp problem" or "problems with your friends" or other stupid crap like that instead of REAL problems like parental abuse or family problems. It's going to get to a point where we have more of these psychological-oriented professionals in each school then teachers. And of course, they will all be outnumbered by the number of cops per school since you have to damn near murder someone before they even think about expelling someone.

If we started expelling people for even cussing in class, everything about our school system (ha, besides enrollment) would be better. More funding per school, better work environment for teachers, higher standards.

Of course that is the tough and mean way of doing things... society doesn't accept stuff like that anymore... i do, but society doesn't... me and society don't mix... i think i need a psychonator.

 

[Blahness]

Chi Meson, you make several good points. The literacy rate and dropout rates are heading in the right direction, and the number of credits in HS.

You may also be right about the number of students passing the various standardized tests... However, is it that the students are learning better, or that the tests are actually easier?

Over the years, the tests seem to have gotten a huge reduction in difficulty, which makes it SEEM like more people are passing, but are still doing the same.

That, and lopsided grading (4 passing and 1 failing grade), can make it look like they're doing better then they actually are.

Quality, not Quantity.

 

[Chi Meson]

If we started expelling people for even cussing in class, everything about our school system (ha, besides enrollment) would be better. More funding per school, better work environment for teachers, higher standards.

I'm glad you said that. Turns out that schools are penalized for expelling students. How so? Around here, if a town's educational system expels a student, the town is still responsible for that student finishishing his education. This is done by sending a private tutor to the student's house.

In other words, our very worst students are rewarded with private, no-commute private instruction. THis is what the law required, I assure you it is not the wishes of the schools.

Furthermore, the troops of psychologists and the extra-special attention given to "Students WIth Special Needs" are all federal mandated requirements (along with the NCLB mandates). Schools that can't afford the extra mandates and requirements will be punished by receiving less funds.

 

[Blahness]

Chi, if that's how NCLB acts, then it NEEDS to be changed.


I don't consider a school to be "succeeding" if they lose 130 MAT tests. Which happened in 4th grade. THEY LOST AN ENTIRE GRADE'S MAT TESTS.


Anyway, earlier points, discuss.

 

[AngelShare]

I have an idea of what you're saying, bomba923 but I'm not sure so, before replying, I'll ask you to explain more.

Well there is your problem. Why piss money into a school whose teachers don't care in the first place? More funding won't change that, no teacher is going to like his/her job more because the library has more books or there are more computers available.

Because that isn't the case for all schools. Some just don't have the funding needed to properly teach students and can't get it because their scores aren't high enough. It's like chasing your tail. That and my school does have good students (The top five are almost obsessive when it comes to homework, for example. Then, if you keep going further down, you'll see that quite a few students do their homework, they just don't care, the bottom 25 or so being slackers. They need pushed. I didn't know what being pushed felt like until I enrolled in my cyber school; in fact, I just got my report card today and my GPA is an 89%. I worked my butt off for that grade but that used to be my GPA at my public school- without the work.), they just get cheated out of a good education.

I got a real problem with the schools around here (and it seems to be this way all over the nation). Why do we need so many F'n psychologists/psychiatrists? I mean what "problems" do these kids have that require trained professional psychiatrists at their beck-n-call (sp?). Now of course, there are times when they are necessary but they literally promote these people as people who can help you in your "latest relationsihp problem" or "problems with your friends" or other stupid crap like that instead of REAL problems like parental abuse or family problems. It's going to get to a point where we have more of these psychological-oriented professionals in each school then teachers. And of course, they will all be outnumbered by the number of cops per school since you have to damn near murder someone before they even think about expelling someone.

I don't know what you mean by this...our counselor deals with school stuff mainly. We don't have any "professionals" but, then again, I'm out here in TheMiddleOfNowhere, Pennsylvania.

If we started expelling people for even cussing in class, everything about our school system (ha, besides enrollment) would be better. More funding per school, better work environment for teachers, higher standards.

Mm, that may be a bit too harsh but I do agree that school's are too lenient. My one ex-friend brought a knife to school and was suspended for a few months. That's it. She half attacked the principal all over nothing. The loony just decided to come in and pull it out.

Some kids are known trouble makers but, for some reason, the teachers are quick to befriend them. One guy was talking about how he hit another guy over the head with a bear bottle and the teacher, with a smile on his face said, "Really? Wow, gettin' into trouble, huh?" and laughed. He thought it was funny!

 

[Blahness]

The school manual says they'll expel kids who attack officials, but I've had a friend who slapped a librarian(Dumbass friend, I tell you), and NOTHING happened.

Question about a law: Am I still a "student" until I get to my place of residence from school? Is it a state(Arizona) law, or National Law? Is it a law in Michigan?

If it's not one in Michigan OR Arizona... UGH.

Anyway, of a poll of 31, the majority said that it was "Bad", followed by "Average", "Horrid", and "Good". None of you said "Great", which signifies that everyone who's voted says that something could be improved, and the majority says that something needs to be improved.

Are these correct inferences, or am I mis-reading polls?

That, and the poll isn't even done yet(I want to get 100 people, if possible), so I'll just hold for now.



Anyway, Yesterday, I looked at an intermediate Algebra class for 10th grade, in an EXCELLING(Top 9.1% performing) school, Sunrise Mountain High School. They learned about the difference of squares, for about 30 minutes... Then socialized for 1 hour, with lots of swearing going unnoted by the teacher. Remember, TOP 9.1% of Arizona schools.

 

[z-component]

Notice that no one said public schools are "great..."

 

[Blahness]

Okay, I am going to support my opinion that schools are bad, and could greatly be improved, using an ACTUAL SCHOOL ASSIGNMENT from my 10th Grade Biology(required class) Course from an Excelling(top 9.1% graded schools in the state) school.

This document has not, in any way(Except for spacing), been edited. This is actually what it says. The (#) means number of points for the section, the __/# means number of points for that specific part of the section. This is a Lab FINAL, where we are to make a lab and physically testing it using provided materials. It is worth 16% of a student's final grade.

Lab Assessment Ruberic

TITLE (1)
Reflects the variables __/1

QUESTION (15)
Must be testable __/10
Clearly state and reflects variables __/4
Conventions(mechanics/ grammar) __/1

HYPOTHESIS (10)
Single sentence, statement form __/1
Worded similarly to question __/3
Must be testable and measurable __/5
Conventions(mechanics/ grammar) __/1

MATERIALS (3)
All equipment/materials listed __/1
Amounts and sizes given __/1
Conventions(not numbered, mechanics/grammar) __/1

PROCEDURES (12)
Sequential order __/1
Logical - will test hypo __/5
Able to be duplicated __/5
Conventions (numbers, mechanics/grammar) __/1

PREDICTION (5)
If (state EXACT hypothesis) __/1
Then (state correct observations) __/3
Conventions (mechanics/grammar) __/1

DATA (6)
All possible qualitative/quantitative oberv (with units) and calculations give in applicable __/1
Title includes ind/dep variables __/1
Data organized into correct columns __/1
Columns labels are specific __/1
Units, if applicable __/1
Conventions (appropriate gridlines, mechanics) __/1

GRAPH (7)
Title includes ind/dep variables __/1
Increments start at zero __/1
Increments equally spaced, entire range of data represented __/1
Variables on correct acex __/1
Axes specifically labeled __/1
Units, if applicable __/1
Conventions (line appropriate for data, mechanics) __/1

DISCUSSION/EVALUATION (34)
Relationship/trend accurately discussed __/10
Correlation (pos, neg, none) stated __/5
Logical explination based on scientific concepts for correlation/ relationship given __/15
Possible source(s) of error given __/1
Effects of error(s) given __/2
Conventions (mechanics/ grammar) __/1

CONCLUSION (7)
Exact hypothesis stated __/1
State if hypo is supported/not __/1
Specific data given(include units) __/3
Supported/ alternate hypo given __/1
Conventions (mechanics/ grammar) __/1

(End of copied document)

I'm not going to even bash the actual requirements, but I'll start with the weighing of the requirements stated. As you see, there is a total of 101 points. Now let's look at what doesn't make sense.


QUESTION (15)
Must be testable __/10
Clearly state and reflects variables __/4
Conventions(mechanics/ grammar) __/1

HYPOTHESIS (10)
Single sentence, statement form __/1
Worded similarly to question __/3
Must be testable and measurable __/5
Conventions(mechanics/ grammar) __/1

(skip materials)

PROCEDURES (12)
Sequential order __/1
Logical - will test hypo __/5
Able to be duplicated __/5
Conventions (numbers, mechanics/grammar) __/1


Will you look at what was bolded? Making sure your question is testable an repeatable is almost a FOURTH of the grade. Making sure your question/hypothesis/procedures are testable, repeatable, tests your hypothesis, states what you're testing, and is measurable is 32 points, ALMOST AS MUCH AS THE DISCUSSION! This is common sense, where, for the average person, it is harder NOT to do it then to do it. (Testable? You can test almost anything available in high school.)

Your question alone is worth as much as your data/data table, graph, and materials COMBINED.

The weighing is specifically made to make students look like they are doing better then they actually are, which in turns artifically raises science grades, which makes it look like the student is more competent in science then they actually are.

Remember, top 9.1% of Arizona schools.

Grades are being artificially inflated. Why? Because higher student grades = more money for school.

That's flawed, and you should know it.

Anyway, arguements/comments would be appreciated. Poll is still open.

 

[ShawnD]

Will you look at what was bolded? Making sure your question is testable an repeatable is almost a FOURTH of the grade. Making sure your question/hypothesis/procedures are testable, repeatable, tests your hypothesis, states what you're testing, and is measurable is 32 points, ALMOST AS MUCH AS THE DISCUSSION! This is common sense, where, for the average person, it is harder NOT to do it then to do it. (Testable? You can test almost anything available in high school.)
Your question alone is worth as much as your data/data table, graph, and materials COMBINED.
The weighing is specifically made to make students look like they are doing better then they actually are, which in turns artifically raises science grades, which makes it look like the student is more competent in science then they actually are.
Remember, top 9.1% of Arizona schools.
Grades are being artificially inflated. Why? Because higher student grades = more money for school.
That's flawed, and you should know it.
Anyway, arguements/comments would be appreciated. Poll is still open.

It's mainly to get kids to pay attention to what they are doing. Have you ever tried to read a report where simple things are missing such as stating the results in the discussion, or labeling what the graph is? It makes no sense. You can be the smartest person in the world, but your report isn't worth the paper its written on if it can't be easily read and understood.
Even for the university chemistry reports I do, there is an automatic 50% deduction if you don't state your values when answering questions.

 

[Smasherman]

I voted bad. Public schools are generally pretty bad. I would say that high school isn't anywhere near as bad as grammar school, though. I got through grammar school with straight A's when I cared, B's when I didn't. It was just ridiculously easy. Once I got into High School I had problems.

I definitely agree that schools cater too much to the lower-achieving students. I learned a significant portion of what I know from video games, not school (I play fairly intelligent games).

Public school doesn't teach kids how to learn, it teaches them how to parrot information.

I'm at a very good school (meaning that most kids have multiple AP classes, speak multiple languages, have high test grades, and have high GPA's). It annoys me that the best way for me to get a high grade in a class is to memorize a bunch of facts and not "get" anything. My last school was worse in this respect, but my current school is still bad; there's just more to memorize.

Anyway, I believe that students should be taught how to learn better at an early age, meaning that low-grade teachers need to be better trained. It's a vicious cycle, since all teachers would need the faculty to teach students to be excellent when they can't, thus creating more poor teachers.

Also, isn't most media written at a 5th grade level?

 

[Cosmo16]

speaking as a card carrrying memeber of HS, I would say they are pretty bad. I live in a rich town with supposdly one of the best programs in the state. However, the only reason I have good teacher from year to year is because I make sure I get them. Event he good teachers often butcher basic concepts.

My friend asked his physics teacher about the gravity on a hollow earth, (At the same time as I posted it here) and the teacher had to go get another physics teacher.

I think that this is part of the problem, many teacher stop atempting to learn after they graduate college.

 

[Blahness]

Many teachers, from what I've seen, stop striving to learn and stick at the level they're teaching. NOT ALL, but many.

Shawn, it makes sense to take away half for not including rediculously easy and obvious parts, but should that also increase your grade by 50% if you include it?

Meh, I'm kind of tired right now, so i'm'a sleep. 'Night, tell me I'm screwed in the head tomorrow.

 

[Cosmo16]

Another comment on teachers

The reason that many teachers do not teach kids how to understand the principles, is becasue they themself just memorized them! It works because, well, it works, duh, any question of "why" is regarded with a "Because" or "We don't teach that at this level"

 

[ShawnD]

Another comment on teachers
The reason that many teachers do not teach kids how to understand the principles, is becasue they themself just memorized them! It works because, well, it works, duh, any question of "why" is regarded with a "Because" or "We don't teach that at this level"

You can't blame the teacher for that though. I can't remember 90% of the stuff I learned last year, so why would I expect the teacher to know that? Unless they're required to teach it every year, they probably haven't even talked about the concept in many years.

 

[Blahness]

Bring Up My Post, I still need more poll results for this.

 

[bomba923]

Hmm...internet polls are technically "voluntary response samples", and aren't considered legal (aka, "accurate/non-biased") estimators of public opinion.

Because you're writing an essay (I presume that this is a serious assignment), you might want to consider other sources & surveys

 

[Blahness]

Okay, what would be a good source?

Think I should poll my school?

And yes, this IS a serious assignment.

Anyway, enough of the 1-line comments. Any ideas?

 

[ShawnD]

Polling the school won't do much good. Who will you ask? The teachers who want more? The students who hate school? Internet poll is about as good as you'll get.

 

[scott_alexsk]

I notice the problems in memorization too. Most people do not even understand the depth of what they are learning in high school. I mean when I took biology in 8th grade, I tried to understand why the proteins folded in certain ways or why catylists worked the way they did. In the end I concluded that biology is applied chemistry and chemistry is ultimatly applied physics. Its like they teach classes in the order going from the least fundamental to the most fundamental level, physics. I mean I understand the problems in the math for physics, but couldn't they teach chemistry first, then biology, since biology is actually a more complex topic. I still don't get why they treat it like it easier.
-Scott

 

[bomba923]

I notice the problems in memorization too. Most people do not even understand the depth of what they are learning in high school. I mean when I took biology in 8th grade, I tried to understand why the proteins folded in certain ways or why catylists worked the way they did. In the end I concluded that biology is applied chemistry and chemistry is ultimatly applied physics. Its like they teach classes in the order going from the least fundamental to the most fundamental level, physics. I mean I understand the problems in the math for physics, but couldn't they teach chemistry first, then biology, since biology is actually a more complex topic. I still don't get why they treat it like it easier.
-Scott

Whatever is "easier"/"harder" is up to personal taste/.

Anyway, high school courses are not taught at a fundamental or academically rigorous level. Therefore, you can switch around "here and there"..etc..etc..with high school courses.

Although I believe that students have the right to demand an academically challenging curriculum, you should consult university textbooks and side literature to acquire fundamental knowledge and capabilities. Read this rather "rantish" post:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=829078&postcount=5

to see what I mean (rant-like in my opinion)

 

[dx]

I voted 'Great'. This was because I live in India, and the schools here don't even deserve the name 'school'. I spent one year in America in Massachusetts and the contrast was blinding. After reading this thread, I am a little more aware of the problems that American schools have, but when I was in MA, I thought the school was perfect. As some of you have pointed out, bad parenting is a big big problem. Here in India, there's a series of tests at the end of 10th grade called the 'Board Exam'. From the time an Indian baby is born, he is made to preapare for this test. And through out the duration of the 'Board Exam', almost everyday, you hear of suicides. This one test determines your future in India. And because of this stupid test, no one cares whether they are really learning anything. They just cram and cram facts into their heads day and night so they can pass this one test. The situation is so bad that I've seen some tenth grade students who literally don't understand what a fraction is. They just memorize some rules to manipulate them. What makes it worse is the teachers are really bad. All the good students either don't become teachers or they just leave the country. So , all the stupidest people become teachers. And the parents don't make it any better. They pressure you to cram for the 'Board Exam'. The financial situation of the country makes it even worse. We can't get good textbooks, so we have to rely on crappy ones written by fools. This is not the situation in all parts of the country, but most of it. There are some good schools, and they are trying hard to improve the education system in other parts of the country. Well, I just wanted you to know that schools in America are lightyears ahead of schools in other parts of the world.

 

[Kerrie]

my biggest complaint with american public school systems is that they seem to be continually catering to lower level students. my school, admittedly in a small town, had a lot of funding for "special ed" students, and very little for advanced students. I'm sure its difficult to distribute money and everything, but i have a hard time accepting large amounts of money being spent on the slowest or most disabled learners, who i feel have the least economical potential when the average and above average students seem to get significantly less funding. or perhaps, not significantly more...

ouch, harsh words, but very true Gale. it's been 15 years since I was in a classroom, but I do know what you are referring to. it will be interesting to see the rise of private education in the next few years, i am already considering that option for my infant daughter.