To Americans: Opinion on our schools.

[Chi Meson]

If we started expelling people for even cussing in class, everything about our school system (ha, besides enrollment) would be better. More funding per school, better work environment for teachers, higher standards.

I'm glad you said that. Turns out that schools are penalized for expelling students. How so? Around here, if a town's educational system expels a student, the town is still responsible for that student finishishing his education. This is done by sending a private tutor to the student's house.

In other words, our very worst students are rewarded with private, no-commute private instruction. THis is what the law required, I assure you it is not the wishes of the schools.

Furthermore, the troops of psychologists and the extra-special attention given to "Students WIth Special Needs" are all federal mandated requirements (along with the NCLB mandates). Schools that can't afford the extra mandates and requirements will be punished by receiving less funds.

 

[Blahness]

Chi, if that's how NCLB acts, then it NEEDS to be changed.


I don't consider a school to be "succeeding" if they lose 130 MAT tests. Which happened in 4th grade. THEY LOST AN ENTIRE GRADE'S MAT TESTS.


Anyway, earlier points, discuss.

 

[AngelShare]

I have an idea of what you're saying, bomba923 but I'm not sure so, before replying, I'll ask you to explain more.

Well there is your problem. Why piss money into a school whose teachers don't care in the first place? More funding won't change that, no teacher is going to like his/her job more because the library has more books or there are more computers available.

Because that isn't the case for all schools. Some just don't have the funding needed to properly teach students and can't get it because their scores aren't high enough. It's like chasing your tail. That and my school does have good students (The top five are almost obsessive when it comes to homework, for example. Then, if you keep going further down, you'll see that quite a few students do their homework, they just don't care, the bottom 25 or so being slackers. They need pushed. I didn't know what being pushed felt like until I enrolled in my cyber school; in fact, I just got my report card today and my GPA is an 89%. I worked my butt off for that grade but that used to be my GPA at my public school- without the work.), they just get cheated out of a good education.

I got a real problem with the schools around here (and it seems to be this way all over the nation). Why do we need so many F'n psychologists/psychiatrists? I mean what "problems" do these kids have that require trained professional psychiatrists at their beck-n-call (sp?). Now of course, there are times when they are necessary but they literally promote these people as people who can help you in your "latest relationsihp problem" or "problems with your friends" or other stupid crap like that instead of REAL problems like parental abuse or family problems. It's going to get to a point where we have more of these psychological-oriented professionals in each school then teachers. And of course, they will all be outnumbered by the number of cops per school since you have to damn near murder someone before they even think about expelling someone.

I don't know what you mean by this...our counselor deals with school stuff mainly. We don't have any "professionals" but, then again, I'm out here in TheMiddleOfNowhere, Pennsylvania.

If we started expelling people for even cussing in class, everything about our school system (ha, besides enrollment) would be better. More funding per school, better work environment for teachers, higher standards.

Mm, that may be a bit too harsh but I do agree that school's are too lenient. My one ex-friend brought a knife to school and was suspended for a few months. That's it. She half attacked the principal all over nothing. The loony just decided to come in and pull it out.

Some kids are known trouble makers but, for some reason, the teachers are quick to befriend them. One guy was talking about how he hit another guy over the head with a bear bottle and the teacher, with a smile on his face said, "Really? Wow, gettin' into trouble, huh?" and laughed. He thought it was funny!

 

[Blahness]

The school manual says they'll expel kids who attack officials, but I've had a friend who slapped a librarian(Dumbass friend, I tell you), and NOTHING happened.

Question about a law: Am I still a "student" until I get to my place of residence from school? Is it a state(Arizona) law, or National Law? Is it a law in Michigan?

If it's not one in Michigan OR Arizona... UGH.

Anyway, of a poll of 31, the majority said that it was "Bad", followed by "Average", "Horrid", and "Good". None of you said "Great", which signifies that everyone who's voted says that something could be improved, and the majority says that something needs to be improved.

Are these correct inferences, or am I mis-reading polls?

That, and the poll isn't even done yet(I want to get 100 people, if possible), so I'll just hold for now.



Anyway, Yesterday, I looked at an intermediate Algebra class for 10th grade, in an EXCELLING(Top 9.1% performing) school, Sunrise Mountain High School. They learned about the difference of squares, for about 30 minutes... Then socialized for 1 hour, with lots of swearing going unnoted by the teacher. Remember, TOP 9.1% of Arizona schools.

 

[z-component]

Notice that no one said public schools are "great..."

 

[Blahness]

Okay, I am going to support my opinion that schools are bad, and could greatly be improved, using an ACTUAL SCHOOL ASSIGNMENT from my 10th Grade Biology(required class) Course from an Excelling(top 9.1% graded schools in the state) school.

This document has not, in any way(Except for spacing), been edited. This is actually what it says. The (#) means number of points for the section, the __/# means number of points for that specific part of the section. This is a Lab FINAL, where we are to make a lab and physically testing it using provided materials. It is worth 16% of a student's final grade.

Lab Assessment Ruberic

TITLE (1)
Reflects the variables __/1

QUESTION (15)
Must be testable __/10
Clearly state and reflects variables __/4
Conventions(mechanics/ grammar) __/1

HYPOTHESIS (10)
Single sentence, statement form __/1
Worded similarly to question __/3
Must be testable and measurable __/5
Conventions(mechanics/ grammar) __/1

MATERIALS (3)
All equipment/materials listed __/1
Amounts and sizes given __/1
Conventions(not numbered, mechanics/grammar) __/1

PROCEDURES (12)
Sequential order __/1
Logical - will test hypo __/5
Able to be duplicated __/5
Conventions (numbers, mechanics/grammar) __/1

PREDICTION (5)
If (state EXACT hypothesis) __/1
Then (state correct observations) __/3
Conventions (mechanics/grammar) __/1

DATA (6)
All possible qualitative/quantitative oberv (with units) and calculations give in applicable __/1
Title includes ind/dep variables __/1
Data organized into correct columns __/1
Columns labels are specific __/1
Units, if applicable __/1
Conventions (appropriate gridlines, mechanics) __/1

GRAPH (7)
Title includes ind/dep variables __/1
Increments start at zero __/1
Increments equally spaced, entire range of data represented __/1
Variables on correct acex __/1
Axes specifically labeled __/1
Units, if applicable __/1
Conventions (line appropriate for data, mechanics) __/1

DISCUSSION/EVALUATION (34)
Relationship/trend accurately discussed __/10
Correlation (pos, neg, none) stated __/5
Logical explination based on scientific concepts for correlation/ relationship given __/15
Possible source(s) of error given __/1
Effects of error(s) given __/2
Conventions (mechanics/ grammar) __/1

CONCLUSION (7)
Exact hypothesis stated __/1
State if hypo is supported/not __/1
Specific data given(include units) __/3
Supported/ alternate hypo given __/1
Conventions (mechanics/ grammar) __/1

(End of copied document)

I'm not going to even bash the actual requirements, but I'll start with the weighing of the requirements stated. As you see, there is a total of 101 points. Now let's look at what doesn't make sense.


QUESTION (15)
Must be testable __/10
Clearly state and reflects variables __/4
Conventions(mechanics/ grammar) __/1

HYPOTHESIS (10)
Single sentence, statement form __/1
Worded similarly to question __/3
Must be testable and measurable __/5
Conventions(mechanics/ grammar) __/1

(skip materials)

PROCEDURES (12)
Sequential order __/1
Logical - will test hypo __/5
Able to be duplicated __/5
Conventions (numbers, mechanics/grammar) __/1


Will you look at what was bolded? Making sure your question is testable an repeatable is almost a FOURTH of the grade. Making sure your question/hypothesis/procedures are testable, repeatable, tests your hypothesis, states what you're testing, and is measurable is 32 points, ALMOST AS MUCH AS THE DISCUSSION! This is common sense, where, for the average person, it is harder NOT to do it then to do it. (Testable? You can test almost anything available in high school.)

Your question alone is worth as much as your data/data table, graph, and materials COMBINED.

The weighing is specifically made to make students look like they are doing better then they actually are, which in turns artifically raises science grades, which makes it look like the student is more competent in science then they actually are.

Remember, top 9.1% of Arizona schools.

Grades are being artificially inflated. Why? Because higher student grades = more money for school.

That's flawed, and you should know it.

Anyway, arguements/comments would be appreciated. Poll is still open.

 

[ShawnD]

Will you look at what was bolded? Making sure your question is testable an repeatable is almost a FOURTH of the grade. Making sure your question/hypothesis/procedures are testable, repeatable, tests your hypothesis, states what you're testing, and is measurable is 32 points, ALMOST AS MUCH AS THE DISCUSSION! This is common sense, where, for the average person, it is harder NOT to do it then to do it. (Testable? You can test almost anything available in high school.)
Your question alone is worth as much as your data/data table, graph, and materials COMBINED.
The weighing is specifically made to make students look like they are doing better then they actually are, which in turns artifically raises science grades, which makes it look like the student is more competent in science then they actually are.
Remember, top 9.1% of Arizona schools.
Grades are being artificially inflated. Why? Because higher student grades = more money for school.
That's flawed, and you should know it.
Anyway, arguements/comments would be appreciated. Poll is still open.

It's mainly to get kids to pay attention to what they are doing. Have you ever tried to read a report where simple things are missing such as stating the results in the discussion, or labeling what the graph is? It makes no sense. You can be the smartest person in the world, but your report isn't worth the paper its written on if it can't be easily read and understood.
Even for the university chemistry reports I do, there is an automatic 50% deduction if you don't state your values when answering questions.

 

[Smasherman]

I voted bad. Public schools are generally pretty bad. I would say that high school isn't anywhere near as bad as grammar school, though. I got through grammar school with straight A's when I cared, B's when I didn't. It was just ridiculously easy. Once I got into High School I had problems.

I definitely agree that schools cater too much to the lower-achieving students. I learned a significant portion of what I know from video games, not school (I play fairly intelligent games).

Public school doesn't teach kids how to learn, it teaches them how to parrot information.

I'm at a very good school (meaning that most kids have multiple AP classes, speak multiple languages, have high test grades, and have high GPA's). It annoys me that the best way for me to get a high grade in a class is to memorize a bunch of facts and not "get" anything. My last school was worse in this respect, but my current school is still bad; there's just more to memorize.

Anyway, I believe that students should be taught how to learn better at an early age, meaning that low-grade teachers need to be better trained. It's a vicious cycle, since all teachers would need the faculty to teach students to be excellent when they can't, thus creating more poor teachers.

Also, isn't most media written at a 5th grade level?

 

[Cosmo16]

speaking as a card carrrying memeber of HS, I would say they are pretty bad. I live in a rich town with supposdly one of the best programs in the state. However, the only reason I have good teacher from year to year is because I make sure I get them. Event he good teachers often butcher basic concepts.

My friend asked his physics teacher about the gravity on a hollow earth, (At the same time as I posted it here) and the teacher had to go get another physics teacher.

I think that this is part of the problem, many teacher stop atempting to learn after they graduate college.

 

[Blahness]

Many teachers, from what I've seen, stop striving to learn and stick at the level they're teaching. NOT ALL, but many.

Shawn, it makes sense to take away half for not including rediculously easy and obvious parts, but should that also increase your grade by 50% if you include it?

Meh, I'm kind of tired right now, so i'm'a sleep. 'Night, tell me I'm screwed in the head tomorrow.

 

[Cosmo16]

Another comment on teachers

The reason that many teachers do not teach kids how to understand the principles, is becasue they themself just memorized them! It works because, well, it works, duh, any question of "why" is regarded with a "Because" or "We don't teach that at this level"

 

[ShawnD]

Another comment on teachers
The reason that many teachers do not teach kids how to understand the principles, is becasue they themself just memorized them! It works because, well, it works, duh, any question of "why" is regarded with a "Because" or "We don't teach that at this level"

You can't blame the teacher for that though. I can't remember 90% of the stuff I learned last year, so why would I expect the teacher to know that? Unless they're required to teach it every year, they probably haven't even talked about the concept in many years.

 

[Blahness]

Bring Up My Post, I still need more poll results for this.

 

[bomba923]

Hmm...internet polls are technically "voluntary response samples", and aren't considered legal (aka, "accurate/non-biased") estimators of public opinion.

Because you're writing an essay (I presume that this is a serious assignment), you might want to consider other sources & surveys

 

[Blahness]

Okay, what would be a good source?

Think I should poll my school?

And yes, this IS a serious assignment.

Anyway, enough of the 1-line comments. Any ideas?

 

[ShawnD]

Polling the school won't do much good. Who will you ask? The teachers who want more? The students who hate school? Internet poll is about as good as you'll get.

 

[scott_alexsk]

I notice the problems in memorization too. Most people do not even understand the depth of what they are learning in high school. I mean when I took biology in 8th grade, I tried to understand why the proteins folded in certain ways or why catylists worked the way they did. In the end I concluded that biology is applied chemistry and chemistry is ultimatly applied physics. Its like they teach classes in the order going from the least fundamental to the most fundamental level, physics. I mean I understand the problems in the math for physics, but couldn't they teach chemistry first, then biology, since biology is actually a more complex topic. I still don't get why they treat it like it easier.
-Scott

 

[bomba923]

I notice the problems in memorization too. Most people do not even understand the depth of what they are learning in high school. I mean when I took biology in 8th grade, I tried to understand why the proteins folded in certain ways or why catylists worked the way they did. In the end I concluded that biology is applied chemistry and chemistry is ultimatly applied physics. Its like they teach classes in the order going from the least fundamental to the most fundamental level, physics. I mean I understand the problems in the math for physics, but couldn't they teach chemistry first, then biology, since biology is actually a more complex topic. I still don't get why they treat it like it easier.
-Scott

Whatever is "easier"/"harder" is up to personal taste/.

Anyway, high school courses are not taught at a fundamental or academically rigorous level. Therefore, you can switch around "here and there"..etc..etc..with high school courses.

Although I believe that students have the right to demand an academically challenging curriculum, you should consult university textbooks and side literature to acquire fundamental knowledge and capabilities. Read this rather "rantish" post:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=829078&postcount=5

to see what I mean (rant-like in my opinion)

 

[dx]

I voted 'Great'. This was because I live in India, and the schools here don't even deserve the name 'school'. I spent one year in America in Massachusetts and the contrast was blinding. After reading this thread, I am a little more aware of the problems that American schools have, but when I was in MA, I thought the school was perfect. As some of you have pointed out, bad parenting is a big big problem. Here in India, there's a series of tests at the end of 10th grade called the 'Board Exam'. From the time an Indian baby is born, he is made to preapare for this test. And through out the duration of the 'Board Exam', almost everyday, you hear of suicides. This one test determines your future in India. And because of this stupid test, no one cares whether they are really learning anything. They just cram and cram facts into their heads day and night so they can pass this one test. The situation is so bad that I've seen some tenth grade students who literally don't understand what a fraction is. They just memorize some rules to manipulate them. What makes it worse is the teachers are really bad. All the good students either don't become teachers or they just leave the country. So , all the stupidest people become teachers. And the parents don't make it any better. They pressure you to cram for the 'Board Exam'. The financial situation of the country makes it even worse. We can't get good textbooks, so we have to rely on crappy ones written by fools. This is not the situation in all parts of the country, but most of it. There are some good schools, and they are trying hard to improve the education system in other parts of the country. Well, I just wanted you to know that schools in America are lightyears ahead of schools in other parts of the world.

 

[Kerrie]

my biggest complaint with american public school systems is that they seem to be continually catering to lower level students. my school, admittedly in a small town, had a lot of funding for "special ed" students, and very little for advanced students. I'm sure its difficult to distribute money and everything, but i have a hard time accepting large amounts of money being spent on the slowest or most disabled learners, who i feel have the least economical potential when the average and above average students seem to get significantly less funding. or perhaps, not significantly more...

ouch, harsh words, but very true Gale. it's been 15 years since I was in a classroom, but I do know what you are referring to. it will be interesting to see the rise of private education in the next few years, i am already considering that option for my infant daughter.

 

[Blahness]

After extensive research, I've concluded that Gale is correct.

Schools, indeed, cater to lower-intellect students. For example, because of some teacher's idea, we were set to cut out and make our own DNA strands, to "solidify the memorization of DNA".

 

[franznietzsche]

Public schools are a god awful failure in this country. Part of it is cultural, and part of it is political. Doesn't change the fact that they are a collective failure.

 

[franznietzsche]

Chi, if that's how NCLB acts, then it NEEDS to be changed.
I don't consider a school to be "succeeding" if they lose 130 MAT tests. Which happened in 4th grade. THEY LOST AN ENTIRE GRADE'S MAT TESTS.
Anyway, earlier points, discuss.

NCLB has done nothing but double the education budget, without bringing a corresponding improvement. Nothing but politicians doing what they always do, throw money at a problem so it looks like you care.

 

[Greg825]

My friend asked his physics teacher about the gravity on a hollow earth, (At the same time as I posted it here) and the teacher had to go get another physics teacher.
I think that this is part of the problem, many teacher stop atempting to learn after they graduate college.

At least the teacher cared enough to sufficiently answer the question rather than making something up or downplaying the importance of answering it. I would say this is exactly the opposite of the problem you describe of teachers stopping the attempt to learn. It's probably not easy for a teacher to risk appearing ignorant in front of the class (I assume) by asking another teacher for help.

I don't want to deride any of me teachers because I think they are all exceptional (some are absolutely phenomenal) but it bothers the hell out of me when I get a response like "I'm too tired think about it right now." to a question I've been pondering. I think this has only happened to me once but I imagine it would be more common in other schools.

I'm currently a senior in a public high school ranked in the top 50 of the nation on http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7723397/site/newsweek/" chart, which, in my opinion, doesn't use the best method to rank high schools but it's the only way I've found of comparing my school to others (there is no "best" way to rank qualitative values anyway). The basis for my voting "bad" on this poll was because I consider my school "average" in relation to what I think would be an ideal educational environment and I've heard/read that my county is one of the top (ten maybe) counties in the nation for public schools and that my school is one of the best in the nation.

I say average because, while I think that my school is relatively quite safe and students are highly motivated, true, rigorous understanding of the material being taught is almost never stressed and is in no way required to get a GPA over 4. I think others have mentioned this problem too. I think there is something fundamentally wrong with an "education" system when one can learn more efficiently and gain a better understanding after a few hours of sitting at home (with the internet, books, or otherwise) than after two days of classes. I'm also surprised at how much the system seems to value knowledge over intelligence - students are handed out proofs of mathematical concepts and whatnot and the proofs gone over, which is great, but are never encouraged to try to prove something themselves.

All that being said I am content with my school, anyone seeking a deeper understanding of material being taught and willing to devote time outside of regular class times is generally helped quite a bit.