A classical challenge to Bell's Theorem?

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The discussion centers on the implications of Bell's Theorem and the nature of randomness in quantum mechanics (QM) versus classical systems. Participants explore a scenario where classical correlations replace quantum entanglement in a Bell-test setup, questioning whether classical sources can yield results consistent with Bell's inequalities. The maximum value achievable for the CHSH inequality is debated, with assertions that it remains +2 under classical conditions, while emphasizing the necessity of specific functions for accurate calculations. The conversation also touches on the fundamental nature of quantum events, suggesting that they may lack upstream causes, which complicates the understanding of measurement outcomes. Ultimately, the discussion highlights the complexities of reconciling classical and quantum interpretations in the context of Bell's Theorem.
  • #271
Gordon Watson said:
Is it not better to say, because simpler and more accurate:

"The particle outcome \textbf{b}^+_i, and corresponding device output +1_i, are both brought into being by the device/particle interaction \delta_b\lambda_i."​
But outcome refers to what the experimenter sees (+1_i). \textbf{b}^+_i is hidden to him. I see not need to distinguish "outcome" and "device output". It just creates confusion.

The part I still do not understand is that it seems as though you are going to great lengths to distinguish yourself from EPR but I'm lost as to what you think you gain from that. Am I wrong?
Thanks for this, for sure. But I still am of the view that their use of "corresponding" muddies the waters for some (like me, for sure);
.
No problem, though I'm not sure I fully understand what bothers you so much about their choice of the word "corresponding". What meaning do you think "corresponding" forces you to conclude from their statements? In other words, why do you think EPR point of view, as you understand it, is wrong
 
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  • #272
billschnieder said:
But outcome refers to what the experimenter sees (+1_i). \textbf{b}^+_i is hidden to him. I see not need to distinguish "outcome" and "device output". It just creates confusion.

The part I still do not understand is that it seems as though you are going to great lengths to distinguish yourself from EPR but I'm lost as to what you think you gain from that. Am I wrong?
.
No problem, though I'm not sure I fully understand what bothers you so much about their choice of the word "corresponding". What meaning do you think "corresponding" forces you to conclude from their statements? In other words, why do you think EPR point of view, as you understand it, is wrong

NB: I am (personally) IN the ontology of the THEORY:- Device and particle are both, equally, eprs there: and so equally open to my view there.

Does that make sense; or just more confusing?

I been in that mode all along, from day one, and NOW suspect it is, in part, contributing to the "possible differences" that we have been discussing.

AND: No, not at all am I distinguishing myself from EPR. Sneak preview of re-formatting might help (see next post).

I am on my way to re-interperting "Corresponding" thanks to some of your better comments. Thanks for that.

More coming. GW

EDIT: In case of past confusions from me: Device/particle interactions are denoted \delta_{\textbf{b}}' \lambda, etc. We retain the prime in \delta_{\textbf{b}}' to facilitate reference to \delta_{\textbf{b}} and \delta_{\textbf{a}}', etc., when discussing the results for identical device settings.
 
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  • #273

Q_{\textit{0.1}}

[Q_{\textit{0.0}} \;with \; footnotes\;to\;facilitate \;critical\;comments.]

With appreciative acknowledgment to

ThomasT for probing questions and billschnieder for prodigious help all-over!

Q \in \{W, X, Y, Z\}.\;\;\;\;(1)^1

A({\textbf{a}}, \lambda)_Q \equiv \pm 1.\;\;\;\;(2)^2

B({\textbf{b}}, \lambda')_Q = ((-1)^{2s} \cdot B({\textbf{b}}, \lambda)_Q \equiv \pm 1. \;\;\;\;(3)^3

E(AB)_Q \equiv ((-1)^{2s} \cdot \int d\lambda\;\rho (\lambda )\;AB)_Q \;\;\;\;(4)^4

=((-1)^{2s})_Q \cdot \int d\lambda \;\rho(\lambda) \;[P(A^+B^+|Q) -P(A^+B^-|Q)-P(A^-B^+|Q)+P(A^-B^-|Q)]\;\;\;\;(5)^5

= [(-1)^{2s}]_Q \cdot[ 2 \cdot P(B^+|Q,\,A^+) - 1].\;\;\;\;(6)^6

E(AB)_W = (cos[2 ({\textbf{a}}, {\textbf{b}})])/2.\;\;\;\;(7)^7

E(AB)_X = - ({\textbf{a}}. {\textbf{b}})/2.\;\;\;\;(8)^8

E(AB)_Y = cos[2 ({\textbf{a}}, {\textbf{b}})].\;\;\;\;(9)^9

E(AB)_Z = - {\textbf{a}}. {\textbf{b}}.\;\;\;\;(10)^{10}
Footnotes:

1. Re (1): The generality of Q, coupled with the general applicability of Malus' initiative (his Method), enables this wholly classical analysis to go through. Q embraces:

W (the classical OP experiment) is Y [= Aspect (2004)] with the source replaced by a classical one (the particles pair-wise correlated via identical linear-polarisations).

X (a classical experiment with spin-half particles) is Z [= EPRB/Bell (1964)] with the source replaced by a classical one (the particles pair-wise correlated via antiparallel spins).

Y = Aspect (2004).

Z = EPRB/Bell (1964).​

2. Re (2): \equiv identifies relations drawn from Bell (1964). (2) & (3) correctly represent Einstein-locality: a principle maintained throughout this classical analysis.

3. Re (3): Primes indicate items in Bob's locale; their removal from HVs (when convenient) is based on the initial correlation of each particle-pair via their \lambda and \lambda' relations. Note that Bell (1964) does not distinguish between \lambda and \lambda': and we introduce s = intrinsic spin. (-1)^{2s} thus arises from Q embracing spin-1/2 and spin-1 particles: in some ways a complication, it brings out the unity of the classical approach used here.

4. Re (4): Integrating over \lambda, with \lambda' eliminated: hence the coefficient, per note at #3.

5. Re (5): P denotes Probability. A^+ denotes A = +1, etc. The expansion is from classical probability theory: causal-independence and logical-dependence carefully distinguished. The probability-coefficients +1, -1, -1, +1, respectively, represent the Einstein-local (causally-independent) values for the relevant A\cdot B product.

The reduction (5)-(6) follows, (A1)-(A4), each step from classical probability theory; \int d\lambda \;\rho(\lambda) = 1. From (5):

P(A^+B^+|Q) -P(A^+B^-|Q)-P(A^-B^+|Q)+P(A^-B^-|Q)\;\;\;\;(A1)

=P(A^+|Q)P(B^+|Q,A^+)-P(A^+|Q)P(B^-|Q,A^+)-P(A^-|Q)P(B^+|Q,A^-)+P(A^-|Q)P(B^-|Q,A^-)\;\;\;\;(A2)

=[P(B^+|Q,A^+)-P(B^-|Q,A^+)-P(B^+|Q,A^-)+P(B^-|Q,A^-)]/2\;\;\;\;(A3)

= 2 \cdot P(B^+|Q,\,A^+) - 1.\;\;\;\;(A4)

Since, \;in \;(A2), \;with \;random \;variables: P(A^+|Q)=P(A^-|Q)=P(B^+|Q)= P(B^-|Q) = 1/2.\;\;\;\;(A5)​


6. Re (6): (6), or variants, allows the application of Malus' Method, as follows: Following Malus' example (ca 1810), we would study the results of experiments and write equations to capture the underlying generalities: here P(B^+|Q,\,A^+). However, since no Q is experimentally available to us, we here derive (from theory), the expected observable probabilities: representing observations that could be made from real experiments, after Malus. Footnotes #7-10 below show the observations that lead from (6) to (7)-(10).

7. Re (7): Within Malus' capabilities, W would show (from observation):

P(B^+|W,\,A^+) = [cos^2 (\textbf{a}, \textbf{b}) + 1/2]/2= ([cos^2 [s \cdot (\textbf{a}, \textbf{b})] + 1/2]/2)_W (A6) in modern terms: whence (7), from (6).

Alternatively, he could derive the same result (without experiment) from his famous Law.

8. Re (8): Within Stern & Gerlach's capabilities, X would show (from observation):

P(B^+|X,\,A^+) = ([cos^2 [s \cdot (\textbf{a}, \textbf{b})] + 1/2]/2)_X = [cos^2 [(\textbf{a}, \textbf{b})/2] + 1/2]/2 (A7): whence (8), from (6).

Alternatively, they could derive the same result (without experiment) by including their discovery, s, in Malus' Law.

9. Re (9): Conducted by Aspect (2004), Y would show (from observation):

P(B^+|Y,\,A^+) = cos^2 [s\cdot(\textbf{a}, \textbf{b})]_Y = cos^2 (\textbf{a}, \textbf{b}) (A8): whence (9), from (6).

To see this, Aspect (2004: (3)) has (in our notation):

P(A^+B^+|Y) = [cos^2 (\textbf{a}, \textbf{b})]/2 = P(A^+|Y)P(B^+|Y, A^+) = P(B^+|Y, A^+)/2 (A9), from (A5); whence P(B^+|Y, A^+) = cos^2 (\textbf{a}, \textbf{b}).\;(A8)

10. Re (10): Analysed by Bell (1964), Z would show (from observation):

P(B^+|Z,\,A^+) = cos^2 [s\cdot(\textbf{a}, \textbf{b})]_Z = cos^2 [(\textbf{a}, \textbf{b})/2] (A10): whence (10), from (6).

To see this, unlike Aspect (2004), Bell (1964) does not derive subsidiary probabilities. Instead, Bell (1964: (3)) has (in our notation):

E(AB)_Z = -(\textbf{a}. \textbf{b}) = -[ 2 \cdot P(B^+|Z,\,A^+) - 1] (A11), from (A5); whence P(B^+|Z, A^+) = cos^2 [(\textbf{a}, \textbf{b})/2].\;(A10)

References:

Aspect (2004): http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0402001

Bell (1964): http://www.scribd.com/doc/51171189/Bell-1964-Bell-s-Theorem


With questions, typos, improvements, critical comments, etc., most welcome,

GW
 
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  • #274
Gordon Watson said:
E(AB)_Z = -(\textbf{a}. \textbf{b}) = -[ 2 \cdot P(B^+|Z,\,A^+) - 1] (A11), from (A5); whence P(B^+|Z, A^+) = cos^2 [(\textbf{a}, \textbf{b})/2].\;(A10)

CORRECTION: Should read:​

E(AB)_Z = -(\textbf{a}. \textbf{b}) = -[ 2 \cdot P(B^+|Z,\,A^+) - 1] (A11), from (6), with s = 1/2; whence P(B^+|Z, A^+) = cos^2 [(\textbf{a}, \textbf{b})/2].\;(A10)

GW

PS: The story thus far: At Bill's prompting, clearly-observable (hence "reasonably"-ontological)-elements of the real-world have been separated from the clearly-ontogolical elements of the theory. The former eprs, widely observable, are things like Mermin's Red (A^+, B^+) and Green (A^-, B^-) lights, with their frequencies of occurrence and joint-occurrence.

We have attempted to put these "reasonable" eprs and their relations in mathematical form so that less words are henceforth required in our discussions. (The qualifier "reasonable" is intended to eliminate discussions of "what really exists" -- for we accept that much of physical reality is veiled from us.)

The next move (it seems to me) is to enunciate the clearly-ontogolical elements of the theory and their dynamical interactions. To show how the set of clearly-observable-eprs relate to the set of "proposed-eprs" -- the actual etrs (ETRs, elements of theoretical reality) advanced in the theory.
 
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  • #275
billschnieder said:
...
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No problem, though I'm not sure I fully understand what bothers you so much about their choice of the word "corresponding". What meaning do you think "corresponding" forces you to conclude from their statements? In other words, why do you think EPR point of view, as you understand it, is wrong

As I recall, I did not yet say that EPR were "wrong". I'm confident of this because, until their meaning is clear to me, I'm in no position to pass judgment. Rather I said that I was "still of the view that their use of "corresponding" muddies the waters for some (like me, for sure)."

So let's try this:

1. In our (you and I) working with Y (after Aspect 2004), I predict with certainty the value +1 (equals: "There will be a Green light" ... as we agreed, say) of a physical quantity q.

2. SO (after EPR) there exists (otherwise I could not have predicted so accurately) an epr e corresponding to q.

3. What are e and q, please?

PERHAPS it is your view that question #3 should follow this:

2a. SO (after EPR??) there exists (when the prediction is confirmed) an epr e corresponding to q.

3a. Then, what are e and q in this case, please?
 
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  • #276
A CALL to the CRITICS!​

Following Bill's suggestion, I've separated the maths from the physics.

The maths is here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3898144&postcount=273 (Q_{\textit{0.1}}).

I expect to post the accompanying one-to-one classical physics next week-end, DV. It will be Q_{\textit{0.2}}.

However, given that important one-to-one relation, it follows that most weaknesses in the case here are already posted at Q_{\textit{0.1}}.

So please do not wait for next-week-end to express your concerns: I would like to have most issues properly covered in Q_{\textit{0.2}}.


Any critic:
If your identifier is not listed below, chances are that I've missed your comments, or I'm confident that they do not apply. Please do not hesitate to remedy the position. For those who are looking for the "TRICK" etc., ... please note this FACT:

Since Planck's constant is (thus far) nowhere explicit, why should anything beyond classical physics be thus far required?​

billschnieder:
Our agreement re EL means that we're not discussing total non-sense. Many thanks for that!

However, I am coming to the view that we differ re EPR (which has a small consequence re BT; more anon), and I'm thinking that I might be able to sharpen your independent view re BT (see gill below); though I make no claim to have studied your position (yet) in detail; more anon.​

Delta Kilo:
Your maths enthusiasms are appreciated, and valued: but we cannot both be right!​

DrC:
I'm thinking that you might now be able to move towards the EL (Einstein-local) camp? For you'll have seen (in Q_{\textit{0.1}}) one of your favourite equations: but in its correct context. :smile: What more must I do?​

gill1109:
Thanks for raising CHSH, to which I've not yet replied: However, in that I derive CHSH from an Identity, are you not puzzled when an Identity is breached by valid experiments? Which is close to Bill's valid concern, I suspect?

More importantly: In the classical physics here, which matches the classical maths, you will have already seen physically-significant integrals like this (though I've now added the implicit driver, making it explicit):

((2s\cdot h/4\pi) \int d\lambda \;(\delta _{a}\lambda \rightarrow \left \{ a^+, a^- \right \})\;cos[2s \cdot (a, \lambda )])_Q = (\pm1)\cdot (s\cdot h/2\pi)_Q.**

I call this physical-process (= "physical-function") a dynamic-iteration. However, the point of this dynamical-process is that it terminates when the trig argument is 0 or ∏. So please note the "push-me/pull-you dynamic" in moving to such an argument: one of a^+ xor a^- is a certain terminus, the other impossible, for the \lambda under test!

**Note that a wholly classical analysis leads to the view that spin should expressed in integer units of h/4\pi; for the size-2 "b-gger-factor (applied to s) would not be required!


harrylin:
I believe that there is enough here already for you to tackle Herbert's Paradox!​

ThomasT:
Trust you are back and doing the math? With more questions?​

ttn:
Your comments would be welcome.​
 
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  • #277
Gordon Watson said:
So let's try this:

1. In our (you and I) working with Y (after Aspect 2004), I predict with certainty the value +1 (equals: "There will be a Green light" ... as we agreed, say) of a physical quantity q.

2. SO (after EPR) there exists (otherwise I could not have predicted so accurately) an epr e corresponding to q.

3. What are e and q, please?
According to EPR e is an element of reality and q is a physical quantity, which is an outcome( in this case +1). Is that what you are asking, otherwise I do not understand the question.

PERHAPS it is your view that question #3 should follow this:

2a. SO (after EPR??) there exists (when the prediction is confirmed) an epr e corresponding to q.
No. Experimental confirmation does not come in, it is assumed. Saying you predict something with certainty, already contains the assumption that experiments will validate it.

Honestly, I still do not understand (1) what your issue is with EPR's "corresponding", and (2) why it is important. Despite your many attempts at explaining it, my feeble mind still does not grasp it for some reason. It may help me if you use a simple example as the "tablets and solutions" one I proposed earlier:

We have tablets with well defined chemicals λi. We have a machine which produces pairs of tablets with a random chemical, except each of the pair is identical to the other. One of each pair is sent to Alice at station "A" and the other to Bob at station "B". Alice and Bob each have a large collection of liquids at their disposal. Each liquid in their collection is such that placing any tablet in any liquid results in a either a sweet taste (designated +1) or a bitter taste (designated -1). You could assume a tablet reacts with a liquid to produce either compound T+ which tastes sweet or compound T- which tastes bitter. We designate the liquid chosen by Alice "a", and the liquid chosen by Bob "b". Alice and Bob have the freedom to pick any of the liquids, but each specific tablet can only be tested once since the reaction destroys it.​

The similarity to the EPR scenario is evident so we should be able to proceed to clarify things with this example. Please, using this example, first explain YOUR view. What in the above is an element of physical reality and what is not according to your view. Then, using the same example, explain what you understand the EPR view to be and why you think there might be an issue with it. I'll greatly appreciate if you could help me understand your view with this example. Thanks! :shy:
 
  • #278
billschnieder said:
According to EPR e is an element of reality and q is a physical quantity, which is an outcome( in this case +1). Is that what you are asking, otherwise I do not understand the question.


No. Experimental confirmation does not come in, it is assumed. Saying you predict something with certainty, already contains the assumption that experiments will validate it.

Honestly, I still do not understand (1) what your issue is with EPR's "corresponding", and (2) why it is important. Despite your many attempts at explaining it, my feeble mind still does not grasp it for some reason. It may help me if you use a simple example as the "tablets and solutions" one I proposed earlier:

We have tablets with well defined chemicals λi. We have a machine which produces pairs of tablets with a random chemical, except each of the pair is identical to the other. One of each pair is sent to Alice at station "A" and the other to Bob at station "B". Alice and Bob each have a large collection of liquids at their disposal. Each liquid in their collection is such that placing any tablet in any liquid results in a either a sweet taste (designated +1) or a bitter taste (designated -1). You could assume a tablet reacts with a liquid to produce either compound T+ which tastes sweet or compound T- which tastes bitter. We designate the liquid chosen by Alice "a", and the liquid chosen by Bob "b". Alice and Bob have the freedom to pick any of the liquids, but each specific tablet can only be tested once since the reaction destroys it.​

The similarity to the EPR scenario is evident so we should be able to proceed to clarify things with this example. Please, using this example, first explain YOUR view. What in the above is an element of physical reality and what is not according to your view. Then, using the same example, explain what you understand the EPR view to be and why you think there might be an issue with it. I'll greatly appreciate if you could help me understand your view with this example. Thanks! :shy:


I'm certain that your feeble mind far exceeds mine :smile:! BUT your shyness nowhere matches mine when it comes to discussing non-locality and related issues in the context of classical settings! For, imho, we needs must ever remember that Planck's constant, not zero, lurks among us!

Maybe it's just a silly/anxious avoidance phobia of mine: induced by so many classical examples that fail ... thereby erroneously strengthening the hand of Einstein's detractors! (I suspect the lack of attention here arises from unresolved issues attaching to many of those same examples.) ALL of which means that I'm "presently" choosing to side-step your neat classical example ... with sincere apologies (I should have said so) ... and stick with EPR a bit longer:-

e and q were given, essentially as blanks, for you to fill-in! Now that you've turned that back on me, I'll do q: trusting that we agree, at least up to that point:

+1 is a surrogate for (+1)(s\cdot h/2\pi).

To me, that means: q is the physical quantity s\cdot h/2\pi = s\cdot(the current unit measure of spin angular momentum in QM). And +1 is its value.

Whence, anticipating your clarification: e is the epr corresponding to the physical quantity s\cdot h/2\pi, which means ... ?

Your move!

PS: My next is sealed.
 
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  • #279
Gordon Watson said:
Maybe it's just a silly/anxious avoidance phobia of mine: induced by so many classical examples that fail ... thereby erroneously strengthening the hand of Einstein's detractors! (I suspect the lack of attention here arises from unresolved issues attaching to many of those same examples.) ALL of which means that I'm "presently" choosing to side-step your neat classical example ... with sincere apologies (I should have said so) ... and stick with EPR a bit longer:-
The simple example is aimed at clarifying *conceptual* issues which appear to be stumbling blocks. Ignoring such examples will surely rob us of their illuminating benefits. Besides, we are not leaving EPR behind, rather we are just putting it aside for a little while to clarify conceptual issues (one step back, three steps forward :smile:). If you must side-step it, at least clearly state the issue we are trying to address here to help me focus my thoughts because I'm lost. I thought we were trying to understand what EPR meant by "epr" and why you have reservations about their view.

e and q were given, essentially as blanks, for you to fill-in!
With what? With the objective of showing what? For the purpose of what? In other words, I thought we were trying to understand EPR's epr conceptually? It appears here we are looking for the details of a specific model.
Now that you've turned that back on me, I'll do q: trusting that we agree, at least up to that point:

+1 is a surrogate for (+1)(s\cdot h/2\pi).

To me, that means: q is the physical quantity s\cdot h/2\pi = s\cdot(the current unit measure of spin angular momentum in QM). And +1 is its value.
What do you measure in a real experiment? s\cdot h/2\pi or +1? What did you predict with certainty? s\cdot h/2\pi or +1? The physical quantity is the same as the answer to both questions. My quess will be +1, although it could be both.

Whence, anticipating your clarification: e is the epr corresponding to the physical quantity s\cdot h/2\pi, which means ... ?
Again, I do not understand what you are looking for. e also corresponds to +1.

I think we have a communication problem here and all of the above discussion may be unnecessary for resolving the conceptual difference that persists (maybe) between our views. You stated earlier you have reservations about EPR's use of "corresponding". Please if you can, say what it is about EPR's "corresponding" you disagree with. It would help this discussion significantly. What do you think they meant by it?
 
  • #280
billschnieder said:
... Again, I do not understand what you are looking for. e also corresponds to +1.

I think we have a communication problem here and all of the above discussion may be unnecessary for resolving the conceptual difference that persists (maybe) between our views...

An epr corresponds to +1? Have you expressed your view correctly? For here's what I expected you to say; here's what I sealed, as my view:

"The epr corresponding to s\cdot h/2\pi is the unit spin angular momentum for the particle-type under test".

PS: So I'm now OK with EPR's definition of an epr in the above context! Does that now mean we agree? I'd also welcome your commenting on how this fits with your classical example. Thanks.
 
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  • #281
billschnieder said:
... e also corresponds to +1. ...


= e, an EPR-epr, corresponds to +1: GW translation.​

Bill: Since +1 = A^+, I believe the above quote puts you clearly in Bell's camp re EPR eprs. To pinpoint this (and identify a consequent difficulty with Bell's theorem), we follow words from Bell (2004):

"To explain this dénouement without mathematics I cannot do better than follow d'Espagnat (1979; 1979a)," Bell (2004: 147). Where we find:

"These conclusions require a subtle but important extension of the meaning assigned to a notation such as A^+. Whereas previously A^+ was merely one possible outcome of a measurement made on a particle, it is converted by this [Bell-style] argument into an attribute of the particle itself [prior to measurement]. To be explicit, if some unmeasured proton has the property that a measurement along the axis A^+ would give the definite result A^+, then that proton is said to have the property A^+. In other words, the physicist has been led to the conclusion that both protons in each pair have definite spin components at all times," d'Espagnat (1979: 134), with GW [.] and emphasis added.

"The key point is the definition of "property A^+,"" d'Espagnat (1980: 9).​

So here's the difficulty (a product of naive-realism, it seems to me): ... "to have property A^+ ... at all times" is to imply that the pristine proton was polarized A^+prior-to-its-test. HOWEVER: as Bell (2004: 82, his emphasis) acknowledges:
"... each particle, considered separately IS unpolarized ...".​

So we have a contradiction; one supporting my view that the "corresponds" in the EPR definition gives rise to problems. SO, to be clear: I do not support Bell's "interpretation" of what EPR meant; if that is what Bell is doing. But it is your interpretation, according to my careful reading:

So we differ now re ERP's eprs; but we can, surely, agree soon?

PS: If that IS what EPR meant, then I'm disagreeing with them too: See my previous post. :smile:
 
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  • #282
Gordon Watson said:
[..] if some unmeasured proton has the property that a measurement along the axis A^+ would give the definite result A^+, then that proton is said to have the property A^+. In other words, the physicist has been led to the conclusion that both protons in each pair have definite spin components at all times," d'Espagnat (1979: 134), with GW [.] and emphasis added.
[..]
So here's the difficulty (a product of naive-realism, it seems to me): ... "to have property A^+ ... at all times" is to imply that the pristine proton was polarized A^+prior-to-its-test. [..]
Hi I have no idea what the two of you mean with "EPR-epr" (maybe you can write it out?).
Anyway, I find it a weird approach to QM if one assumes that a resulting feature of a measurement must necessarily have existed before the measurement - and that's certainly not what EPR meant. They certainly knew that a measurement is an interaction which affects that what is measured.
 
  • #283
harrylin said:
Hi I have no idea what the two of you mean with "EPR-epr" (maybe you can write it out?).

Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen's element of physical reality. Sorry :smile:
 
  • #284
Gordon Watson said:
= e, an EPR-epr, corresponds to +1: GW translation.​

Bill: Since +1 = A^+, I believe the above quote puts you clearly in Bell's camp re EPR eprs. To pinpoint this (and identify a consequent difficulty with Bell's theorem), we follow words from Bell (2004):

"To explain this dénouement without mathematics I cannot do better than follow d'Espagnat (1979; 1979a)," Bell (2004: 147). Where we find:

"These conclusions require a subtle but important extension of the meaning assigned to a notation such as A^+. Whereas previously A^+ was merely one possible outcome of a measurement made on a particle, it is converted by this [Bell-style] argument into an attribute of the particle itself [prior to measurement]. To be explicit, if some unmeasured proton has the property that a measurement along the axis A^+ would give the definite result A^+, then that proton is said to have the property A^+. In other words, the physicist has been led to the conclusion that both protons in each pair have definite spin components at all times," d'Espagnat (1979: 134), with GW [.] and emphasis added.

"The key point is the definition of "property A^+,"" d'Espagnat (1980: 9).​

So here's the difficulty (a product of naive-realism, it seems to me): ... "to have property A^+ ... at all times" is to imply that the pristine proton was polarized A^+prior-to-its-test. HOWEVER: as Bell (2004: 82, his emphasis) acknowledges:
"... each particle, considered separately IS unpolarized ...".​

So we have a contradiction; one supporting my view that the "corresponds" in the EPR definition gives rise to problems. SO, to be clear: I do not support Bell's "interpretation" of what EPR meant; if that is what Bell is doing. But it is your interpretation, according to my careful reading:

So we differ now re ERP's eprs; but we can, surely, agree soon?

PS: If that IS what EPR meant, then I'm disagreeing with them too: See my previous post. :smile:

I do not agree with this. I have repeatedly highlighted that "corresponds" is not the same as "equivalent" or "the same as". If only you would take up the simple example I proposed earlier, all of this will become clearer but I do not know how else to explain myself but certainly you have misunderstood me.
 
  • #285
billschnieder said:
I do not agree with this. I have repeatedly highlighted that "corresponds" is not the same as "equivalent" or "the same as". If only you would take up the simple example I proposed earlier, all of this will become clearer but I do not know how else to explain myself but certainly you have misunderstood me.


Bill, please: would you mind expanding on what exactly it is that you disagree with? I take it you agree that I have correctly cited Bell's position? Then, after that, all your "expansion" requires, it seems to me, is to state what e is IN your terms.


I'm avoiding your simple example (for now) because it is EPR that we need to be satisfied with. SO EVEN IF I analysed your example, the underlined question would still remain (for me, at least). So, please, a direct answer in your terms re e and we're finished, I'm believing. Thanks, GW.

PS: I am also believing that Bell's interpretation of an EPR-epr is more common than many realize. And I'm taking it that one of your "disagrees" is that you do NOT agree with him?

PPS: There may be subtle differences, and NOT SO subtle differences, between "corresponds", "equivalent" and "the same as" --- for IT seems to me that it very much depends on the CONTEXT! That's why the EPR context is my primary focus here (for now). Me not wishing to be stubborn, just insistent, on that one point. o:) :smile:
 
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  • #286
harrylin said:
... I find it a weird approach to QM if one assumes that a resulting feature of a measurement must necessarily have existed before the measurement - and that's certainly not what EPR meant. They certainly knew that a measurement is an interaction which affects that what is measured.

Hi Harald, I agree: "Disturbance" was well-known and accepted from the early days of QM. YET we find it occasionally ignored in modern times. So interesting questions arise: Did EPR ignore it?* Did Bell ignore it (per citations given above)? Or was he presenting what he thought were EPR's views!? And where does Herbert sit? Cheers, G

*PS: Note that EPR start their definition of an epr with: "If, without in any way disturbing a system, we can predict ..." But did they make their predictions correctly on the basis of what had been revealed by a disturbed system?

As you can see in my dialogue/struggles with Bill, I do not see this EPR-epr business to be as straight-forward as many suggest: And that is why I favour my e and q analysis (above). :smile:
 
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  • #287
Q_{\textit{0.2}}

Q_{\textit{0.1}} \;with \; new\; notes^\textit{0}\;and\; equations\;to\;facilitate\;discussion.

Thanking ThomasT for his questions, billschnieder for his answers:

Toward \;Bell's \; (2004: 167) \;hope\; for\;a\;simple\;constructive\;model.


Q \in \{W, X, Y, Z\}.\;\;(1)^1

A({a}, \lambda)_Q \equiv \pm 1 = ((\delta_{a} \lambda\rightarrow \lambda_{a^+}\oplus\lambda_{a^-}) \;cos[2s \cdot (a, \lambda_{a^+} \oplus\lambda_{a^-})])_Q.\;\;(2)^2

B(b, \lambda')_Q = ((-1)^{2s} \cdot B(b, \lambda)_Q \equiv \pm 1 = ((\delta_{b}' \lambda'\rightarrow \lambda'_{b^+}\oplus\lambda'_{b^-}) \;cos[2s \cdot (b, \lambda'_{b^+}\oplus\lambda'_{b^-})])_Q. \;\;\;(3)^3

E(AB)_Q \equiv ((-1)^{2s} \cdot \int d\lambda\;\rho (\lambda )\;AB)_Q \;\;(4)^4

=((-1)^{2s})_Q \cdot \int d\lambda \;\rho(\lambda) \;[P(A^+B^+|Q) -P(A^+B^-|Q)-P(A^-B^+|Q)+P(A^-B^-|Q)]\;\;(5)^5

= [(-1)^{2s}]_Q \cdot[ 2 \cdot P(B^+|Q,\,A^+) - 1].\;\;(6)^6

E(AB)_W = E(AB)_{'Malus'} = (cos[2 ({a}, {b})])/2.\;\;(7)^7

E(AB)_X = E(AB)_{'Stern-Gerlach'} = - ({a}\textbf{.}{b})/2.\;\;(8)^8

E(AB)_Y = E(AB)_{\textit{Aspect (2004)}} = cos[2 ({a}, {b})].\;\;(9)^9

E(AB)_Z = E(AB)_{\textit{EPRB/Bell (1964)}} = - {a}\textbf{.}{b}.\;\;(10)^{10}

((2s\cdot h/4\pi) \cdot (\delta_{a} \lambda\rightarrow \lambda_{a^+}\oplus\lambda_{a^-}) \;cos[2s \cdot (a, \lambda_{a^+} \oplus\lambda_{a^-})])_Q = (\pm1)\cdot (s\cdot h/2\pi)_Q.\;\;(11a)^{11}

((2s\cdot h/4\pi) \cdot (\delta_{b}' \lambda'\rightarrow \lambda'_{b^+}\oplus\lambda'_{b^-}) \;cos[2s \cdot (b, \lambda'_{b^+}\oplus\lambda'_{b^-})])_Q = (\pm1)\cdot (s\cdot h/2\pi)_Q.\;\;(11b)^{11}

QED: \;A \;simple \;constructive \;model \;delivers \;Bell's \;hope \;(2004: 167)!​


Notes:

0. From ThomasT's questions to billschnieder's answers, this wholly classical analysis begins with the acceptance of Einstein-locality (EL). It continues with Bell's hope: "... the explicit representation of quantum nonlocality [in 'the de Broglie-Bohm theory'] ... started a new wave of investigation in this area. Let us hope that these analyses also may one day be illuminated, perhaps harshly, by some simple constructive model. However that may be, long may Louis de Broglie* continue to inspire those who suspect that what is proved by impossibility proofs is lack of imagination," (Bell 2004: 167). "To those for whom nonlocality is anathema, Bell's Theorem finally spells the death of the hidden variables program.31 But not for Bell. None of the no-hidden-variables theorems persuaded him that hidden variables were impossible," (Mermin 1993: 814). [All emphasis, [.] and * added by GW.]

Replacing RHS = by \neq, BT-inequalities may be seen in (9)-(10) above. But we side with Einstein, de Broglie and the later Bell against Bell's own 'impossibility' theorem. "For surely ... a guiding principle prevails? To wit: Physical reality makes sense and we can understand it. Or, to put it another way: Similar tests on similar things produce similar results, and similar tests on correlated things produce correlated results, without mystery. Let us see:" (Watson !998: 814).

Taking maths to be the best logic, with probability theory the best maths in the face of uncertainty, we eliminate unnecessary uncertainty at the outset: (2)-(4) show that Bell's important functional protocol [Bell 1964: (1), (2), (12)-(14)] may be satisfied: i.e., such functions exist. Moreover, (2)-(3) capture EL: which is all that is required for (4)-(10) to go through. That is: (4)-(6) proceed from classical probability theory; (7)-(10) follow from Malus' Method (see #6 below). (11) then provides the physics that underlies the logic here: every relevant element of the physical reality having a counterpart in the theory.


' = a prime, identifies an item in, or headed for, Bob's locale. Their removal from "hidden-variables" (HVs) follows from the initial correlation (via recognised mechanisms) of the i-th particle-pair's HVs \lambda_i and \lambda_i': with the HVs here pair-wise drawn from infinite sets, no two pairs are the same; though W and X may be modified to improve this, somewhat.

\oplus = xor; exclusive-or.

a, b = arbitrary orientations: for W and X, in 2-space, orthogonal to the particles' line-of-flight; for Y and Z, in 3-space (from the spherical symmetry of the singlet state).

s = intrinsic spin, historically in units of h/2\pi. Units of h/4\pi would be better: 4\pi significant in terms of spherical symmetries in 3-space. (PS: A related thought for the critics: This classical analysis of four experiments, Q, yields the better value for unit spin angular momentum, h/4\pi. How come?)

\delta_{a} = Alice's device, its principal axis oriented a; etc.

\delta_{b}' = Bob's device, its principal axis oriented b; etc.

\delta_{a} \lambda\rightarrow \lambda_{a^+}\oplus \lambda_{a^-} = an Alice-device/particle interaction terminating when the particle's \lambda is transformed to \lambda_{a^+} xor \lambda_{a^-} (the device output correspondingly transformed to \pm1); etc. This may be seen as "a development towards greater physical precision … to have the [so-called] 'jump' in the equations and not just the talk," Bell (2004: 118), "so that it would come about as dynamical process in dynamically defined conditions." This latter hope being delivered expressly, and smoothly, in (11).

\lambda_{a^+} xor \lambda_{a^-} = HV outcomes after device/particle interactions; etc. \lambda_{a^+} is parallel to a. For s = 1/2, \lambda_{a^-} is anti-parallel to a; for s = 1, \lambda_{a^-} is perpendicular to a; etc.

1. Re (1): The generality of Q and Malus' Method (#6 below), enables this wholly classical analysis to go through. Q embraces:

W = 'Malus' (a classical experiment with photons) is Y with the source replaced by a classical one (the particles pair-wise correlated via identical linear-polarisations).

X = 'Stern-Gerlach' (a classical experiment with spin-half particles) is Z with the source replaced by a classical one (the particles pair-wise correlated via antiparallel spins).

Y = Aspect (2004).

Z = EPRB/Bell (1964).​

2. Re (2): \equiv identifies relations drawn from Bell (1964). (2) & (3) correctly represent Einstein-locality: a principle maintained throughout this classical analysis.

3. Re (3): Bell (1964) does not distinguish between \lambda and \lambda', and we introduce s = intrinsic spin. (-1)^{2s} thus arises from Q embracing spin-1/2 and spin-1 particles: in some ways a complication, it brings out the unity of the classical approach used here.

4. Re (4): Integrating over \lambda, with \lambda' eliminated: hence the coefficient, per note at #3.

5. Re (5): P denotes Probability. A^+ denotes A = +1, etc. The expansion is from classical probability theory: causal-independence and logical-dependence carefully distinguished. The probability-coefficients +1, -1, -1, +1 (respectively), represent the relevant A\cdot B product: each built from the relevant Einstein-local (causally-independent) values for A and B.

The reduction (5)-(6) follows, (A1)-(A4), each step from classical probability theory; \int d\lambda \;\rho(\lambda) = 1. From (5):

P(A^+B^+|Q) -P(A^+B^-|Q)-P(A^-B^+|Q)+P(A^-B^-|Q)\;\;(A1)

=P(A^+|Q)P(B^+|Q,A^+)-P(A^+|Q)P(B^-|Q,A^+)-P(A^-|Q)P(B^+|Q,A^-)+P(A^-|Q)P(B^-|Q,A^-)\;\;(A2)

=[P(B^+|Q,A^+)-P(B^-|Q,A^+)-P(B^+|Q,A^-)+P(B^-|Q,A^-)]/2\;\;(A3)

= 2 \cdot P(B^+|Q,\,A^+) - 1.\;\;(A4)

NB: In (A2), with random variables: P(A^+|Q)=P(A^-|Q)=P(B^+|Q)= P(B^-|Q) = 1/2.\;\;(A5)​


6. Re (6): (6), or variants, allows the application of Malus' Method, as follows: Following Malus' example (ca 1810), we would study the results of experiments and write equations to capture the underlying generalities: here P(B^+|Q,\,A^+).
However, since no Q is experimentally available to us, we here derive (from theory), the expected observable probabilities: representing observations that could and would be made from real experiments, after Malus. Footnotes #7-10 below show the observations that lead from (6) to (7)-(10).

NB: P(B^+|Q,\,A^+) = P(\delta_{b}' \lambda_i'\rightarrow \lambda'_{b^+}|Q,\,\delta_{a} \lambda_i\rightarrow \lambda_{a^+}): a prediction of the normalised frequency with which Bob's result is +1, given that Alice's result is +1; see also (11).​

7. Re (7): Within Malus' capabilities, W would show (from observation):

P(B^+|W,\,A^+) = [cos^2 ({a}, {b}) + 1/2]/2= ([cos^2 [s \cdot ({a}, {b})] + 1/2]/2)_W \;\;(A6) in modern terms: whence (7), from (6). Alternatively, he could derive the same result (without experiment) from his famous Law.​

8. Re (8): Within Stern & Gerlach's capabilities, X would show (from observation):

P(B^+|X,\,A^+) = ([cos^2 [s \cdot ({a}, {b})] + 1/2]/2)_X = [cos^2 [({a}, {b})/2] + 1/2]/2\;\;(A7): whence (8), from (6). Alternatively, they could derive the same result (without experiment) by including their discovery, s = 1/2, in Malus' Law.​

9. Re (9): Conducted by Aspect (2004), Y would show (from observation):

P(B^+|Y,\,A^+) = cos^2 [s\cdot({a}, {b})]_Y = cos^2 ({a}, {b})\;\;(A8): whence (9), from (6). To see this, Aspect (2004: (3)) has (in our notation):

P(A^+B^+|Y) = [cos^2 ({a}, {b})]/2 = P(A^+|Y)P(B^+|Y, A^+) = P(B^+|Y, A^+)/2 (A9), from (A5); whence

P(B^+|Y, A^+) = cos^2 ({a}, {b}).\;\;(A8)​

10. Re (10): Analysed by Bell (1964), Z would show (from observation):

P(B^+|Z,\,A^+) = cos^2 [s\cdot({a}, {b})]_Z = cos^2 [({a}, {b})/2]\;\;(A10): whence (10), from (6). Unlike Aspect (2004), Bell (1964) does not derive subsidiary probabilities. Instead, Bell (1964: (3)) has (in our notation):

E(AB)_Z = -({a}. {b}) = -[ 2 \cdot P(B^+|Z,\,A^+) - 1] (A11), from (6), with s = 1/2; whence

P(B^+|Z, A^+) = cos^2 [({a}, {b})/2].\;\;(A10)​

11. Re (11): With s\cdot h a driver, the dynamic-process

((2s\cdot h/4\pi)\cdot(\delta _{a}\lambda \rightarrow \lambda_{a^+} \oplus\lambda_{a^-})\;cos[2s \cdot (a, \lambda_{a^+} \oplus\lambda_{a^-})])_Q\;(A12)

terminates when the trig-argument is 0 or ∏; the move to such an argument determined by this fact: one of \lambda_{a^+} xor \lambda_{a^-} is a certain terminus, the other impossible: a "push-me/pull-you" dynamic on the \lambda_i under test; a smooth determined classical-style transition as opposed to a 'quantum jump'; etc.

(11) thus provides the physics that underlies the logic here: every relevant element of the physical reality has a counterpart in the theory: with Planck's constant h confined to the outer extremities on both sides of (11). Thus all the maths is classical: LHS-(s\cdot h) drives the particle/device interaction; RHS-(s\cdot h) is a potential driver for a next interaction.​


References:
Aspect (2004): http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0402001

Bell (1964): http://www.scribd.com/doc/51171189/Bell-1964-Bell-s-Theorem

Bell (2004): Speakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Mechanics; 2nd edition. CUP, Cambridge.

Mermin (1993): Rev. Mod. Phys. 65, 3, 803-815. Footnote #31: "Many people contend that Bell's Theorem demonstrates nonlocality independent of a hidden-variables program, but there is no general agreement about this."

Watson (1998): Phys. Essays 11, 3, 413-421. See also ERRATUM: Phys. Essays 12, 1, 191. A peer-reviewed* draft of ideas here, its exposition clouded by the formalism and type-setting errors. *However, completing the circle, I understand that one reviewer was a former student of de Broglie. :smile:

With questions, typos, improvements, critical comments, etc., most welcome,

GW
 
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  • #288
DrChinese said:
... There is no requirement whatsoever that any theory must be causal to "match our experience". All that is required is that there be agreement between theory and observation. (Emphasis added, GW)

DrC, not wishing to side-track the "Foundations" thread, I'd welcome your elaboration of the above emphasised sentence in the context of this thread:

1. How do you reconcile your support for Bell's "theorem" with the emphasised sentence?

2. Given your early oppositional remarks to the theme of this thread, how do you now (see sentence) reconcile that opposition with the agreement between theory and observation that is here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3905795&postcount=287.

3. And, please, relevant to both Q1 and Q2: ... especially having regard to Bell's own view of his "theorem" (Bell 2004: 167; Mermin 1993: 814: see extracts in Post #287 immediately above)?

Thanks, GW
 
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  • #289
akhmeteli said:
Another quick update: the extension to spinor electrodynamics (which is more realistic than scalar electrodynamics) has been described in a short article in Journal of Physics: Conference Series ( http://dx.doi.org/10.1088/1742-6596/361/1/012037 - free access):

"2. After introduction of a complex 4-potential (producing the same electromagnetic field as the standard real 4-potential), the spinor field can be algebraically eliminated from spinor electrodynamics; the resulting equations describe independent evolution of the electromagnetic field.

3. The resulting theories for the electromagnetic field can be embedded into quantum field
theories."

The details can be found in the references of the article.

Hi Andrey, and congratulations on the publication of another advance in your work. However, with respect to the passage copied below AND your concern about breaching Bell inequalities, I suggest that you need to carefully distinguish this dichotomy, imho:

The (1) "violation of a Bell inequality" is NOT the same as (2) "falsifying local realism".

I am certain that valid experiments (and good theory) will continue to deliver (1): a violation of Bell inequalities. I am confident that no experiments will ever falsify (2): local realism (properly defined).

To these ends, and to this latter end in particular, I'd welcome your comments on the breaching of Bell inequalities AND the explicit local realism (and any other matter) in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3905795&postcount=287

PS: As previously discussed, I believe that the BOLD-ed sentence below greatly weakens your work. Me believing it to be a FALSE hope :frown: (as opposed to Bell's positive one, as discussed and delivered in the above link). :smile:

With best regards,

Gordon
....

From http://iopscience.iop.org/1742-6596/361/1/012037/pdf/1742-6596_361_1_012037.pdf -- "Of course, the Bell inequalities cannot be violated in such a theory. But there are some reasons to believe these inequalities cannot be violated either in experiments or in quantum theory. Indeed, there seems to be a consensus among experts that “a conclusive experiment falsifying in an absolutely uncontroversial way local realism is still missing” [4]. On the other hand, to prove theoretically that the inequalities can be violated in quantum theory, one needs to use the projection postulate (loosely speaking, the postulate states that if some value of an observable is measured, the resulting state is an eigenstate of the relevant operator with the relevant eigenvalue). However, such postulate, strictly speaking, is in contradiction with the standard unitary evolution of the larger quantum system that includes the measured system and the measurement device, as such postulate introduces irreversibility and turns a superposition of states into their mixture. Therefore, mutually contradictory assumptions are required to prove the Bell theorem, so it is on shaky grounds both theoretically and experimentally and can be circumvented if, for instance, the projection postulate is rejected. [Emphasis added by GW: other issues arising not addressed here.]​
 
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  • #290
Hi Gordon,

Re: Post # 287

I am glad to see that someone has incorporated Malus in a classical way and compared to the qm predictions. If possible, could you summarize and/or elaborate in more detail?
 
  • #291
After discussion among the Mentors, this thread is closed. To quote from our Rules:
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