A collision of apocalyptic visions.

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Ivan Seeking
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A very interesting review of the forces guiding world politics today.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/watch2.html

I realize how frustrating it is to watch something like this, but please don't make this about religion bashing or proselytizing, or the thread will be locked. This is a discussion about social and political forces that may indeed shape our future in a profound way.
 

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Whoops, you want to be sure and watch the discussion between Lerner and Weber, after the first video. This is the most important part:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/watch3.html

They mention a few really terrifying ideas, such as dispensationalism.

Note also in the first video names of the friends of the dispensationalists: Bush, McCain, Gingrich, and Lieberman.
 
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Ivan Seeking said:
A very interesting review of the forces guiding world politics today.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/watch2.html

I realize how frustrating it is to watch something like this, but please don't make this about religion bashing or proselytizing, or the thread will be locked. This is a discussion about social and political forces that may indeed shape our future in a profound way.


"Frustrating" is a rather mild word for such fanaticism. I didn't or rather couldn't go through the entire video. Can such utter disregard for life truly be called religion?

Two of the greatest evils created by mankind:

1) Organized religion (which in my oponion is no better than superstition)

2) Economics.

As long as our policies are governed by these two forces the result will be destruction.

Not physical destruction but destruction in the very quality of life.

It appears as though mankind has a long and tough battle for survival ahead...
 
It is certainly worrisome.

Can such utter disregard for life truly be called religion?
No! A disregard for life and humanity is anti-religious and anti-human.

It's all about control - control of people. It's all about ego and vanity which anathema to spirituality.

I certainly think we (humanity) need an alternative view (paradigm) to materialism (in the extreme - hedonism) and apocalypse.

I agree with Rabbi Lerner
RABBI MICHAEL LERNER: Right. The alternative is to create a different world view. And this is the problem that the United States and those of us who are liberals or progressives in the United States and in the Western world have not been able to articulate an alternative world view, in part because we're so largely secular and because we don't understand that there is some spiritual foundation to the yearnings of people all over the world for something other than global capitalism, for something other than the globalization of selfishness. And that is seen as what America has to offer the world, each one for herself or himself. We need an alternative. We need an alternative that can speak to the hunger that people have for a framework of meaning and purpose to their lives and the hunger that they have for loving relationships that are not based solely on looking out for number one.

Another good point by Lerner
RABBI MICHAEL LERNER: Well-- I'm hoping we have a few more years here. And I think in the 21st Century the growing wisdom of the American people and of all people is that our well being depends on the well being of everyone else on the planet, and I think that the Israeli population increasingly are coming to understand that their well being depends on the well being of Palestinians and of the Arab world. That there's that fundamental interdependence.

And what I think is a key issue
RABBI MICHAEL LERNER: Politics was never separate from religion in the Bible. And I don't believe that there needs to be a separation between our highest ideals that come from the religious world and our commitment to implement them in the political world. It's only when we try to implement them in an exclusivist way that says, "You have to believe in my religion and my particular vision of God"-- that we run into deep trouble.

Conflicts in the world come down to problems of possessiveness and exclusion.

I was taught to share and to be inclusive.
 
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novaa77 said:
Can such utter disregard for life truly be called religion?

I have been a spiritual person for all of my life. I was raised Catholic and have experimented with most major churches, including a brief period of time as a young adult spent as a Mormon.

If there is one message that all Christian faiths have in common, it is to love your neighbor and your enemy. [Well, you have to love God first but we won't get into that :biggrin:]. What we have seen in this country over the last fifteen years - the religious fervor that has fueled the neo-con movement - is a violation of the most basic tenets of Christian faith that I know it. It makes me feel ashamed to call myself a Christian because I don't want to be associated with these nuts.

I recall that not too long ago, the Church of Christ was running an ad that portrayed the christian extremists like the mafia. It was unlike any commercial for a religion that I have ever seen. Thug looking types in dark suits were shown checking all who try to enter the extremist church. They would turn away anyone who they saw as being unfit. The Church of Christ then chimes in, in the classic Christian tradition, welcoming all who want to worship in their church. This was no strawman. They were playing to the fundamental disconnect between classic Christian beliefs, and the exclusivists.

As for supporting war, my faith says that you don't drop bombs on babies; esp when given a choice. That was what drove my final decision in not supporting the invasion of Iraq, and that was the day that I threw away my flag. Generally speaking, I believe there are times when war cannot be avoided, but these people literally want to help usher in the last days - the end of the world! And they are closely tied to the base that gave us Bush.

What we see here are the makings of the worst of the worst. They may just get their apocalypse.
 
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Okay, so I guess they are supposed to be bouncers, not mafia, but here's the commercial.


This is another one that allegedly was pulled due to complaints.
 
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An interesting side note: In my efforts to develop an alternative fuels company, it has come to my attention that some people do not support this effort because according to the Bible, it is hopeless. Armageddon will result from a war over oil and that's apparently the end of the story. There is no use in even trying.

On the News Hour, on PBS, I just heard a similar justification used in support of reversing the protections for the few old-growth forests that remain in the Pacific Northwest. ~ “We might as well log it all because God’s in control anyway”.

It makes me wonder if these people plan for anything at all. Do they use doctors or medicines? Do they go to shopping for food or do they just wait for manna to fall from heaven?
 
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novaa77 said:
"Frustrating" is a rather mild word for such fanaticism. I didn't or rather couldn't go through the entire video. Can such utter disregard for life truly be called religion?

Only by those espousing that particular world view.

The statements made by Rabbi Lerner consistently give me hope that clearer heads will prevail on issues like this.

Clearer heads must prevail on issues like this otherwise we are headed for Armageddon.
 
novaa77 said:
Two of the greatest evils created by mankind:

2) Economics.

This is such an ignorant point of view. Economics systems are not exactly created, but rather they emerge through human interaction. Essentially, you have a very limited set of resources on the planet (not just physical resources either, but human resources like innovation, creativity, knowledge, etc) and people are trying to use these resources optimally to improve the quality of their lives. Look, I don't understand why people complain about these things, because if you don't want to take part in the economic system then you don't have to. Go live in the wilderness, hunt for yourself, build your own home, etc (has anyone seen "Into the Wild"?). It especially irritates me when someone complains about economic systems while enjoying all the ammenitities it has to offer, such as complaining on a computer that has internet access. I bet you eat 3 meals a day and live in a decent house as well, and might even have a car. Like I said, if you don't like it, then choose not to take part, but don't ruin it for the rest of us who enjoy the standard of living that our economic system allows.
 
Ivan Seeking said:
An interesting side note: In my efforts to develop an alternative fuels company, it has come to my attention that some people do not support this effort because according to the Bible, it is hopeless. Armageddon will result from a war over oil and that's apparently the end of the story. There is no use in even trying.

I don't find that very convincing, and I imagine most people on this forum don't as well. This is why I think economic freedom is so important, because then these people do not have the power to stop you from starting your company.
 
Ivan Seeking said:
Whoops, you want to be sure and watch the discussion between Lerner and Weber, after the first video. This is the most important part:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/watch3.html

They mention a few really terrifying ideas, such as dispensationalism.
'Terrifying' is a bit much given that there have been nutty end-of-days groups for thousands of years. Edit: A PF patron saint, Sir Newton, had a go at it. Yes, a look over at wiki has him down as 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issac_Newton#Views_of_the_end_of_the_world".', time enough for many more runs to the pub.:wink:
 
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If these sorts won't so closely tied to people running this country, as shown in the video, I might agree. After watching this, one has to wonder what really drives the positions of people like Lieberman, McCain, and Bush.
 
Ivan Seeking said:
If these sorts won't so closely tied to people running this country, as shown in the video, I might agree. After watching this, one has to wonder what really drives the positions of people like Lieberman, McCain, and Bush.
Well perhaps you have more information than I. The fact that some politician goes and glad-hands and cracks a god joke or two in some big crowd doesn't mean that he/she buys the whole story. Likewise if a politician goes and cracks a few jokes at a Moveon rally I don't know that he/she considers General Petraeus a liar out to 'betray' the US. Certainly there's some level of common cause, but I doubt much beyond some kind of support for Israel.
 
Ivan Seeking said:
I recall that not too long ago, the Church of Christ was running an ad that portrayed the christian extremists like the mafia. It was unlike any commercial for a religion that I have ever seen. Thug looking types in dark suits were shown checking all who try to enter the extremist church. They would turn away anyone who they saw as being unfit. The Church of Christ then chimes in, in the classic Christian tradition, welcoming all who want to worship in their church. This was no strawman. They were playing to the fundamental disconnect between classic Christian beliefs, and the exclusivists.

Just a slight note... Those videos are from the United Church of Christ, a very progressive denomination, rather than the Church(es) of Christ. Where I am, at least, the Churches of Christ (Stone-Campbellite adult baptizers) folks can be found three times a week at the local meeting place putting the fun in fundamentalism. They have a local TV show on which "Brother Lambert" goes off on those modernists who say that Mark 16:9-20 was a later addition. "They jest want to take scissors and cut it right outta the BIBLE!" Could be different at other meeting places, though...
 
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mheslep said:
Well perhaps you have more information than I. The fact that some politician goes and glad-hands and cracks a god joke or two in some big crowd doesn't mean that he/she buys the whole story. Likewise if a politician goes and cracks a few jokes at a Moveon rally I don't know that he/she considers General Petraeus a liar out to 'betray' the US. Certainly there's some level of common cause, but I doubt much beyond some kind of support for Israel.

Any association between politics and this group is terrifying. Watch the Moyers special linked in the OP. They cater to these groups because it is a good part of their base.

Why would any resposible politician allow himself to be associated with these people; unless perhaps he agrees with them or is willing to cater to them as a base?
 
Ivan Seeking said:
Any association between politics and this group is terrifying. Watch the Moyers special linked in the OP. They cater to these groups because it is a good part of their base.

Why would any resposible politician allow himself to be associated with these people; unless perhaps he agrees with them or is willing to cater to them as a base?

I think you are giving the likes of CUFI too much credit. Has the 2-state solution gone away as some of the quoted CUFI speakers and Moyers' himself purports? What evidence, at all, do you have that any US policy regarding the support of Israel is derived from support of this group? Do you think that Bush's roadmap for peace policy was authored by these extrema?

Or is this all just typical Moyers' hysterical "the sky is falling" rhetoric.
 
chemisttree said:
What evidence, at all, do you have that any US policy regarding the support of Israel is derived from support of this group? Do you think that Bush's roadmap for peace policy was authored by these extrema?

Or is this all just typical Moyers' hysterical "the sky is falling" rhetoric.

The loyalty to Israel is painfully evident in these belief systems. If a person adheres to these beliefs, then how can they be trusted to act by logic and not faith?

It is one thing to have religious faith, it is quite another to cater to groups who state that they want the world to end.

Why does McCain not denounce these people?