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B A couple of questions on mass increase

  1. Mar 11, 2016 #1
    I found these [experimental data](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_relativistic_energy_and_momentum#Bertozzi_experiment) on mass increase.



    > Data of the Bertozzi experiment show close agreement with special
    > relativity. Kinetic energy of five electron runs: 0.5, 1, 1.5, 4.5, 15
    > MeV (or 1, 2, 3, 9, 30 in mc²). Speed: 0.752, 0.828, 0.922, 0.974, 1.0
    > in c (or 0.867, 0.910, 0.960, 0.987, 1 in c²).

    - Do you know of any link where I can find more precise experimental data (say accurate to five digits) for mass increase?
    For example, in the above table, is 0.5 MeV a rounded figure for 0.511 MeV , the rest mass of an electron? supposing the latter, what is the exact mass increase, is it exacly one mass (+ the usual rest mass), so the total mass is 2.00000 $m_e$?
    And, if we give energy equal to 30 m(e) speed is surely not 1, what is the exact value?
    - At what speed/energy there is minimum agreement with the SR formula? according to the picture it is about 5-6 MeV, is this correct?

    - Can you also specify if "increased mass" means that the body exerts an increased (and exactly proportional) gravitational force? Does it mean that an electron with 1 GeV Ke exerts a pull equal to a proton?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Mar 12, 2016 #2

    Orodruin

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    You really should stop using "relativistic mass" as most physicists have abandoned the concept as redundant. You will still find it in popular science and older textbooks, but it really adds nothing to the discussion and tends to confuse more than it helps - one of the more common misconceptions being that the gravity of the object changes according to the relativistic mass (it does change, just not in accordance to relativistic mass).

    Please see https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/what-is-relativistic-mass-and-why-it-is-not-used-much/
     
  4. Mar 12, 2016 #3
    I only mentioned mass increase, is that wrong? did I miss something in your link, does it answer my questions?
     
  5. Mar 12, 2016 #4

    Orodruin

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    "Mass increase" only occurs if you use the concept of relativistic mass. An object's invariant mass (generally just called "mass" because we no longer use relativistic mass) is an invariant and the same regardless of the state of motion.
     
  6. Mar 12, 2016 #5
    Could you re-frame my question in current appropriate terms, and reply to it? My main question is:

    what happens if an electron gets 0.511 MeV of energy (or twice or 30 times as much), what is its speed and what is its mass (if it increases, doesn't it?) ,according to recent experiments, and how much they differ from the SR formula.

    Thanks
     
  7. Mar 12, 2016 #6

    Orodruin

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    You can easily compute the speed according to the relativistic relation between speed and total energy. All results are compatible with SR within experimental errors.
     
  8. Mar 12, 2016 #7
    I know results are compatible with theory, what I am asking is to know the exact difference between theory and experiment in the range between 1 an 20-30 M(e) and where the disagreement is greatest. Do you know or can you direct me to a link?
     
  9. Mar 12, 2016 #8

    Orodruin

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    There is no disagreement. Did you not read what I just wrote?
     
  10. Mar 12, 2016 #9
    Is it possible to have some up-to-date figures or a chart like the one in the wiki article I quoted? can you give me at least one single figure, say,at 5 mc^2, please?
     
  11. Mar 12, 2016 #10

    Orodruin

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    I do not understand what you are after. The agreement with special relativity is exceptional and modern particle accelerators would not function if this was not the case (not older ones either btw - old fashioned TVs needed to take relativistic effects into account).
     
  12. Mar 12, 2016 #11
    You keep talking as if I am denying the agreement.

    It is so hard to understand I am just asking for a list of figures more recent and accurate than Bertozzi's. (the one I quoted)? What is so strange about it?

    Can I ask for the most precise figure avalaible of the speed of an electron with Ke of 9*0.511 Mev? is it exactly 0.974 c? THAT is what I am after!
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2016
  13. Mar 12, 2016 #12

    jtbell

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    High-energy particle accelerators like the LHC are designed, and the experiments using them are analyzed, under the assumption that energy and momentum vary with speed in the way that relativity predicts. If the relativistic energy and momentum equations didn't work for proton energies up to 6.5 TeV at least, particle physicists would have noticed it by now.
     
  14. Mar 12, 2016 #13

    Orodruin

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    You may rest asured that the agreement is good to a large number of significant digits. I do not know where you would find recent data, because this agreement is so good that things we have built would simply not work if it was not.
     
  15. Mar 12, 2016 #14
    Can you tell me what is the greatest energy and highest speed ever reache in such facilitty? Is there a list of data of such experiments there?
     
  16. Mar 12, 2016 #15

    jtbell

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    The Large Hadron Collider at CERN has been accelerating protons to 6.5 TeV (6.5 x 106 MeV) since last year. That is the current record.

    We had a thread about this a few days ago in our relativity forum:

    https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/velocity-of-an-object-and-its-gravitational-pull.861305/
     
  17. Mar 12, 2016 #16
    Why do you keep reassuring me, sir? haven't I made myself clear yet?
    The chart I cited shows that agreement does vary at different energies, is that Bertozzi wrong? Has that experiment been disproved? Can you provide more recent or accurate data? If you can't , just say so. You haven't tried to answer one single question in my posts
     
  18. Mar 12, 2016 #17
    Thanks, Do you have info regarding electrons, please? If you can't direct me to a link, please tell me the highest energy recorded and the exact speed corresponding to that, please

    Thanks for your help
     
  19. Mar 12, 2016 #18

    jtbell

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  20. Mar 12, 2016 #19

    Orodruin

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    No, you misinterpret the result. In actuality, the Bertozzi experiment shows good agreement with SR within experimental uncertainty (you cannot expect more than that) and rules out the Newtonian description. That should be your takeaway message.
     
  21. Mar 12, 2016 #20

    DrGreg

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