A quite verbal proof that if V is finite dimensional then S is also....

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the proof that if a linear space V is finite dimensional, then any subspace S of V is also finite dimensional, and that the dimension of S is less than or equal to the dimension of V. Participants are exploring the implications of linear independence and the definitions of finite dimensionality within the context of vector spaces.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the reasoning behind the proof that S is finite dimensional, questioning the assumptions made about linear combinations and independence of vectors. There is exploration of definitions and implications of finite dimensionality, as well as the relationship between independent sets in S and V.

Discussion Status

The discussion is active, with participants offering various perspectives on the proof's rigor and the definitions involved. Some have suggested alternative approaches and clarifications regarding the implications of linear independence, while others are questioning the assumptions made in the original proof.

Contextual Notes

There is a focus on ensuring that the definitions of finite dimensionality and linear independence are well understood, with some participants expressing concerns about the completeness of the original proof. The discussion also touches on the potential for contradictions arising from assumptions about the dimensions of S and V.

  • #31
PeroK said:
Okay, but one problem is that the vectors in the basis for ##V## may not be in the subspace ##S## at all. Maybe starting with a basis for ##V## is not the right approach?
You argued in #4, that starting with a basis for ##V## is not the right approach. Not that starting with a basis for ##S##, which is what I suggested, is not the right approach. At least I did not see it elsewhere. But yes, I guess then your approach is taking a nontrivial combination of n+1 basis vectors in S, which are necessarily dependent , as they live in V, so we backtrack to S and get a nontrivial combination that equals 0.
 
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  • #32
WWGD said:
You argued in #4, that starting with a basis for ##V## is not the right approach. Not that starting with a basis for ##S##, which is what I suggested, is not the right approach.
And I argued in post #16 that starting with a basis for ##S## was not the right approach either:

I made no assumption that S was finite dimensional. I simply looked for ##n + 1## independent vectors in ##S##. I avoided the potential tangle created by looking for a basis for ##S## or a set that spans ##S##.
 
  • #33
... the tangle is that you have to deal with the possibility that the basis or spanning set is infinite. And, given that we need to prove that ##S## is finite dimensional, this makes things unnecessarily clumsy.

Whereas, simply taking a finite set of ##n + 1## independent vectors in ##S## is simple and elegant, as has already been established!
 
  • #34
PeroK said:
And I argued in post #16 that starting with a basis for ##S## was not the right approach either:

I made no assumption that S was finite dimensional. I simply looked for ##n + 1## independent vectors in ##S##. I avoided the potential tangle created by looking for a basis for ##S## or a set that spans ##S##.
And I agree with your argument on cardinality. I offered a similar one awhile back in Stack Echange , was downvoted and told I must use induction in the length of segments ## [n]:=\{1,2,..n\}## by hard core set theorists. I bought into it since they know way more about set theory than I do. Not sure what their quibble was. Not disagreeing with your argument, just recounting what some expect as a proof.
 
  • #35
WWGD said:
And I agree with your argument on cardinality. I offered a similar one awhile back in Stack Echange , was downvoted and told I must use induction in the length of segments ## [n]:=\{1,2,..n\}## by hard core set theorists. I bought into it since they know way more about set theory than I do. Not sure what their quibble was. Not disagreeing with your argument, just recounting what some expect as a proof.
This argument arises on here as well from time to time. My position is simple: in general a university maths degree does not begin with a year of hard-core set theory. We have to assume, therefore, that a subject like linear algebra can be taught without descending into set theory at every turn.

In any case, the OP is trying to learn Linear Algebra, not the intricacies of the foundations of mathematics.
 

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