A simple question about reversible heat

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the possibility of heating a specific amount of liquid water from 20°C to 21°C without changing the universe's entropy. It explores concepts in thermodynamics, entropy, and the relationship between time and entropy, as well as the implications of reversible processes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that ideally, it is possible to heat water without changing the universe's entropy, but in reality, this is only approximately true.
  • One participant questions whether the original inquiry is a homework problem, which is clarified as not being the case.
  • A participant discusses a friend's unconventional view that time could be replaced by entropy variation, arguing that the entropy of a finite system does not relate to the universe's entropy.
  • Another participant agrees that while entropy is often seen as an indicator of the direction of time, equating it to time is an overreach. They suggest that real-world changes typically involve some effect on the universe's entropy.
  • Concerns are raised about the difficulty of finding real-world examples that have no effect on the universe's entropy, with a pendulum in a vacuum mentioned as a potential counterexample.
  • There is a discussion about how different levels of friction in a pendulum's oscillation could lead to varying entropy changes, raising questions about the relationship between entropy variation and the period of oscillation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between entropy and time, with some agreeing on the difficulty of achieving a process that does not affect the universe's entropy, while others challenge the equivalence of entropy and time. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views present.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexities involved in real-world applications of thermodynamic principles, including the influence of friction and other factors on entropy changes.

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Is it possible to heat a specific amount of liquid water, say 1kg, (at 1 atm), let's say from 20°C to 21°C, without changing the universe's entropy?
(Sorry but I have a little blackout on simple thermodynamics...)

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Ideally, yes. In reality, only approximately.
 
Chestermiller said:
Ideally, yes. In reality, only approximately.
Ok. Ideally how would you do, for example?

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Is this a homework problem?
 
Chestermiller said:
Is this a homework problem?
Not at all.

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lightarrow said:
Not at all.

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The problem is I am discussing with someone with very strange ideas about time: he says it doesn't exist :smile:
He thinks time could be replaced by entropy variation ΔS of a system (or with ΔS/m, m = system's mass), for example the ΔS of a specific amount of liquid water heated of a specific ΔT. I objected that, in case, an increment of time could have "something to do" with the universe's ΔS, and that of a finite system (like the said water) has no relation with the universe's ΔS (the last one, for example, can be made almost zero for an almost perfectly reversible system).
But I know the real problem is the fact I would like to convince those kinds of people about the stupid things they write...

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Since the entropy of the universe can only get larger it is often argued that it is an indicator of the direction of time. However I think your friend goes too far when he argues that it is equivalent to time, and I think you have the right argument in showing an event that has a direction in time and yet does not change the entropy of the universe.

Unfortunately it is hard to construct real world change that absolutely positively has no effect on the entropy of the universe. You can always find some little bit of friction somewhere or something. Otherwise a pendulum swinging in a vacuum would be a particularly apropos counter example.

Even if you come up with a good example he'll just say it is the entropy of the whole universe that creates time and any isolated experiment can't change the march of entropy.
 
Cutter Ketch said:
Since the entropy of the universe can only get larger it is often argued that it is an indicator of the direction of time. However I think your friend goes too far when he argues that it is equivalent to time, and I think you have the right argument in showing an event that has a direction in time and yet does not change the entropy of the universe.

Unfortunately it is hard to construct real world change that absolutely positively has no effect on the entropy of the universe. You can always find some little bit of friction somewhere or something. Otherwise a pendulum swinging in a vacuum would be a particularly apropos counter example.
Thanks.
Even if you come up with a good example he'll just say it is the entropy of the whole universe that creates time and any isolated experiment can't change the march of entropy.
Infact it's what he did :-)
But processes like that, or others which he would use to model a clock, can be made with different entropy variations; I mean, let's take a pendulum: if frictions are small, every single oscillation will be associated with a small entropy variation; if frictions are large, so would be entropy variation: the period of oscillation would be different in the two cases? It seems ridiculous to me.
Regards.

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