# Abstract question I fail to solve

1. Sep 25, 2014

### zoki85

Hi!

I couldn't find good enough logic here.
What's the correct answer (A,B,C,D, or E), what I am missing?

Zoki

2. Sep 25, 2014

### phinds

Do you see any correlation between each perimeter and what is inside that perimeter?

3. Sep 25, 2014

### zoki85

No, nothing specific. Seems random to me.

4. Sep 25, 2014

### zoobyshoe

Zoki, this has the superficial appearance of a Raven's Progressive matrix, but may not be. The group as a whole may just be a set. And the solution might simply be to select the choice that best belongs in the set. Choice A wouldn't belong in the set because the two figures that are in A have rounded corners, and all the figures in the 'set proper' have sharp corners. By the same logic, all the other choices have features that make them too different from the members of the set proper to belong there, except one, E. E seems to have all the right properties.

I don't know if thats the right answer but it is the only sense I could make of this. Do you have an answer key?

5. Sep 26, 2014

### jz92wjaz

I was also thinking E. If you look at the diagonals, you have a set of three where the number of sides of the inside shape matches the number of sides of the outside shape. The other visible set of three has two where the number of sides on the outside and inside shape differs by one, and one where the outside has two more than the inside. On the last diagonal, you see one where the number of sides differs by one, and one where the number of sides differs by three. I would infer that the last ought to differ by one, so I pick E.

Or, each diagonal has two odd shaped pieces. The diagonal starting from the top left to the bottom right has both in the top left image. The other full diagonal has the odd pieces in the middle left and lower middle. The last diagonal has odd pieces in the bottom left and middle right. The ? piece should have no odd pieces. A, B, and C are all odd. D has no middle. I choose E again.

Honestly, I have no idea which is correct, but this seems plausible. If you find the correct answer, please tell us.

6. Sep 26, 2014

### zoki85

@zoobyshoe, thanks for your reply, it was helpful. No, I haven't got answer key. Why do you think E is better than B or C, what excludes answers B,C?
@jz92wjaz, I think you're complicating bit too much. This is the question one should answer in about 1 min, so the pattern involved must be rather simple.

7. Sep 26, 2014

### TumblingDice

I have to agree with post #4 from @zoobyshoe, as well as the perspective from @wjaz. I can easily eliminate A, B and D because they have properties that conflict with all other members of the set/puzzle. (A) has rounded corners, (B) has two identical geometric figures, and (D) does not have an inner shape. Looking from this distance, I haven't found a way to eliminate (C) from the big picture yet, but there's also a little "spidey sense" in my head that's saying I should notice a problem with (C).

If this were a question on a test of mine, I could go home feeling very confident with (E).

Anyone else?

8. Sep 26, 2014

### Staff: Mentor

If you look at each vertical column the left and right columns each have one set of two thin figures, one set with one bold outer and thin inner, and one bold inner and thin outer. The middle column is missing a set with a bold outer figure and thin inner figure "E". B is not thin enough inside and too large inside as compared to the others. That's how I see it.

Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
9. Sep 26, 2014

### zoobyshoe

B and C both have their "main" axis on the diagonal. In saying that, I'm kind of waving my hand at a property I don't have rigorous words for. But the other figures all seem "rooted" in either a vertical or horizontal axis, not a diagonal one. B is outright skewed or racked. There's no other figure with that property. We could put four different axes through C, but the "main" ones on which it is constructed are the diagonal ones. Additionally, if we were to chose C we'd have to explain why it's outer polygon has so many more sides than any other figure. Of all the choices E seems completely non-controversial. There's nothing about it we'd have to stretch to explain.

Regardless, that whole approach might be outright wrong. There may be a much more interesting, but obscure, pattern I haven't grasped.

10. Sep 26, 2014

### TumblingDice

If Evo's observation isn't correct, it's the fault of the puzzle, AFAIC.

WAY TO GO, EVO!
Check it out! The bold/normal weights that Evo explains are unique and consistent with, "what's missing?". I'm all in with Evo - the geometries, shapes, and curves are all blowing smoke here. (I'm experiencing some significant "deja vu" at the moment, and don't understand why).

11. Sep 26, 2014

Staff Emeritus
I think I like Evo's answer the best. As far as zoobyshoe's "main axis" argument, I would cast this as every shape (indeed, every outer shape) has at least one horizontal line. C does not. I don't think B can be excluded on symmetry axis grounds because of (1,1) where the inner shape also has a canted symmetry axis.

I also think this is a lousy question. One can argue for several answers.

12. Sep 26, 2014

Staff Emeritus
Except that no row or column has two outer shapes with the same number of sides. (2,2) and E both have 4.

13. Sep 26, 2014

Staff Emeritus
So does (1,3).

14. Sep 26, 2014

### zoki85

I admit that's a nice way of creative thinking :)
However, that sort question just probes the logic and reasoning power of testee.
In that sense here's better way to eliminate B. Note that in all 5 figures with bold and thin figure in the picture, the figures have different number of sides.Only cases with both thin sides figures have equal number of sides. B has two figures with equal number of sides but they are not both thin.

I don't think there's anything with diagonals or orientation of the figures involved. But that's just my opinion

15. Sep 26, 2014

### zoobyshoe

I'm starting to wonder if the fact one can argue several different routes to E, none completely satisfying, means it's actually a well constructed question meant to test something else. Like a logic rorschach test.

16. Sep 27, 2014

### zoki85

Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2017
17. Sep 27, 2014

### zoobyshoe

Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2017
18. Sep 27, 2014

### zoki85

19. Sep 27, 2014

### TumblingDice

Me, too. I started thinking this shortly after posting my enthusiam regarding the line weights. Just as you wrote, multiple paths lead to "E", and the problem there is it doesn't weed out a good answer from the illusive, correct answer.

Has anyone been able to spot possible reasons to eliminate "C"? I haven't seriously revisited this since last time - will check back and "chew" some more hopefully soon.

20. Sep 27, 2014

### zoki85

Read Evo's post. Column rule of inverted sides thickness for two elements of the same column. This is why answer E has advantage over answer C.
And maybe not the only reason...

21. Sep 27, 2014

### TumblingDice

Yes, yet this solution is confined to columns, w/o any observable hint on the puzzle why the solution would be confined to columns. I went back to the puzzle to view rows and diagonals with a fresh perspective (compliments of Evo), but no luck. I've even tried thinking of the middle square as a 'wild card' - yeah, that hasn't worked yet...

I want to believe the answer will be clear and amazingly obvious once it's identified, and the creator spent a lot of time to strategically disguise it to find whose brain thinks that way, very quickly.

22. Sep 27, 2014

### TumblingDice

Another road that leads to "E"? Looking at a set of 3x3 nine, I began looking for groups of three. I spot three figures with inside/outside normal weight. Three more with inside bold and outside normal. That leaves two with inside normal and outside bold - and "E" is the only one that will make the final triplet. Unless the inside parellogram in "B"is normal - maybe not?

This is a GOOD puzzle (as long as the answer isn't "E").

23. Sep 27, 2014

### zoki85

@TumblingDice, Let me rephrase it in the following way :
We have 3 items with bolded greater number of sides on the inner figure, and 2 items with bolded greater number of sides on the outer figure. So what answer do you prefer for the pic of the puzzle to be completed: C or E?

24. Sep 27, 2014

### TumblingDice

Plz read my post #21. (C would be my pick if i fits for a specific, unique reason.)

25. Sep 27, 2014

### Staff: Mentor

I would choose "E" for two independent reasons, and I got both independent of the discussion here:

1) by elimination: A with rounded edges and D without inner shape clearly don't fit in the pattern. C has 12 sides for the outer shape, that is too much. B does not follow the symmetry pattern (horizontal or vertical symmetry axis, apart from the inner shape at A).
2) by line width: Same argument as Evo posted. It is not so clear if the inner shape at "B" is thick or not, but I prefer E here.