Accelerating Expansion of Cosmos: Measured in Multiple Directions?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of the accelerating expansion of the universe and whether it can be measured in multiple directions. Participants explore the implications of this acceleration and its relationship to the positions of objects, using analogies such as ants on an elastic band to illustrate their points.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if the accelerating expansion of the universe can point to a center, suggesting that it seems contradictory for galaxies to accelerate away from a supernova in multiple directions.
  • Another participant argues that it is possible for objects to accelerate away from each other in different directions, using an analogy of ants on an elastic band to explain how their relative separation can increase even if they are not moving relative to the band itself.
  • Several participants engage in a back-and-forth regarding the feasibility of a middle ant accelerating away from two others, with some asserting that this is possible under certain conditions in General Relativity.
  • One participant emphasizes that the acceleration refers to the increasing rate of distance between objects rather than their individual motion, clarifying the distinction between the ants' positions and the expanding elastic band.
  • Another participant acknowledges the analogy of the elastic band and connects it to the scale factor in cosmological models, indicating an understanding of the underlying mathematical framework.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the accelerating expansion, particularly regarding the analogy of ants and the nature of acceleration in the universe. No consensus is reached on the initial question about measuring acceleration in multiple directions.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference concepts from General Relativity and cosmological models, indicating a reliance on specific definitions and frameworks that may not be universally accepted or understood. The discussion includes unresolved assumptions about the nature of acceleration and the applicability of analogies used.

exmarine
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Does anyone know if the accelerating expansion of the universe was measured in more than one direction? Unlike the expansion having no obvious center, it seems like the accelerating expansion would have to point to a “center”.

Our galaxy, for example, cannot be accelerating away from a supernova in one direction as well as another in the opposite direction.

Thanks.
 
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exmarine said:
Our galaxy, for example, cannot be accelerating away from a supernova in one direction as well as another in the opposite direction.
This conclusion is wrong. It is perfectly possible.

Consider ants moving on an elastic band that stretches such that at time ##t## it has total length ##a(t)##. The ants may describe their positions in terms of their fractional position on the band, e.g., an ant at the mid point would say it is at ##x = 0.5##. The actual distance between two ants at ##x_1## and ##x_2##, respectively, is then ##a(t) |x_1 - x_2|##. Given that the ants remain at fixed ##x_i##, their relative separation speed is ##a'(t)|x_1 - x_2|## (which is the ant-universe equivalent of Hubble's law) and the acceleration of their relative separation is ##a''(t)|x_1 - x_2|##. Note that this is positive if ##a''(t) > 0## regardless of whether ##x_1 < x_2## or ##x_2 < x_1##.
 
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??
Can you line up 3 ants in a row, and maintain that the middle one can accelerate away from both #1 and #3?
 
exmarine said:
??
Can you line up 3 ants in a row, and maintain that the middle one can accelerate away from both #1 and #3?
Why not! Say the middle one is standing still, and the other two are accelerating away from it, one to the left, one to the right.
 
exmarine said:
??
Can you line up 3 ants in a row, and maintain that the middle one can accelerate away from both #1 and #3?

In Newtonian physics, the two end ants would have to accelerate away from the middle ant. In General Realtivity, all three ants can all be "at rest" (relative to the cosmological frame, the Cosmological Microwave Background frame), but due to the acceleration expansion of the universe, all three ants can and do accelerate away from each other.

The "balloon" analogy is often used to illustrate how this is possible - it's only an analogy, but it may be helpful. See for instance http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/balloon0.html or try google.
 
exmarine said:
??
Can you line up 3 ants in a row, and maintain that the middle one can accelerate away from both #1 and #3?
You are entirely missing the point. The ants are not themselves accelerating relative to the elastic band. It is the growth of the elastic band that is accelerating and therefore the growth speed of the distance between the ants is increasing.
 
exmarine said:
Can you line up 3 ants in a row, and maintain that the middle one can accelerate away from both #1 and #3?
"Accelerate" in the context of space inflation means that the distances are increasing at an increasing rate. That is perfectly possible for 3 ants on a rubber band.
 
Orodruin said:
This conclusion is wrong. It is perfectly possible.

Consider ants moving on an elastic band that stretches such that at time ##t## it has total length ##a(t)##. The ants may describe their positions in terms of their fractional position on the band, e.g., an ant at the mid point would say it is at ##x = 0.5##. The actual distance between two ants at ##x_1## and ##x_2##, respectively, is then ##a(t) |x_1 - x_2|##. Given that the ants remain at fixed ##x_i##, their relative separation speed is ##a'(t)|x_1 - x_2|## (which is the ant-universe equivalent of Hubble's law) and the acceleration of their relative separation is ##a''(t)|x_1 - x_2|##. Note that this is positive if ##a''(t) > 0## regardless of whether ##x_1 < x_2## or ##x_2 < x_1##.

Oh I see what you are saying. The a(t) is the scale factor in the Friedman metric? Got it. Thanks very much.
 

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