Acceleration of fluid particle

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around finding the acceleration of a fluid particle in a given velocity field defined as u = (y, t-x). Participants are examining the application of the material derivative and the associated equations in fluid dynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to compute the acceleration using the material derivative and expresses confusion regarding the lecturer's example, suggesting potential typos. Other participants clarify the operator \vec{u}\cdot\nabla and its application in the context of the problem. There are questions about the vector form of the results and the commutativity of derivatives.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively engaging with the problem, providing clarifications and corrections to each other's reasoning. There is a recognition of differing interpretations of the lecturer's example, and some participants are exploring the implications of their calculations without reaching a definitive consensus.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note confusion stemming from the lecturer's example and the complexity of the notation involved in the calculations. There is an acknowledgment of the potential for misunderstanding due to the intricacies of vector calculus in this context.

sa1988
Messages
221
Reaction score
23

Homework Statement



Find acceleration for a general point (x, y) at time t, in the velocity field u = (y, t-x)

Homework Equations



Du/Dt = ∂u/∂t + (u⋅∇)u

The Attempt at a Solution



u/∂t = (0, 1)

(u⋅∇)u = [(y, t-x)⋅(∂/∂x, ∂/∂y)](y, t-x)

= (0 + 0)(y, t-x) = (0, 0)

Thus Du/Dt = ∂u/∂t + (u⋅∇)u = (0, 1) + (0, 0)

= (0, 1)

It seems correct but my lecturer has given a different example, for a different problem, in which he draws out the entire process (presumably for the sake of letting students follow every tiny step) but I think there are typos in his work and it's really confusing things for me. So I've stuck with what I believe to be correct, but would like to run it by you guys to see if things are all ok.

Thanks!

For reference, my lecturer's example is here - http://www1.maths.leeds.ac.uk/~kersale/2620/Examples/sol1.pdf - The part on the final page.

It looks like he's written ∂/∂x in far too many places...?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
No, what your lecturer did is correct. Perhaps what you are missing is that [itex]\vec{u}\cdot\nabla[/itex], with [itex]\vec{u}= u\vec{i}+ v\vec{j}[/itex] is equal to [itex]u\frac{\partial }{\partial x}+ v\frac{\partial}{\partial y}[/itex] and that, being a scalar operator "multiplied" by [itex]\vec{u}= u\vec{I}+ v\vec{j}[/itex] is "multiplied" by both u and v: [tex](\vec{u}\cdot\nabla)\vec{u}= \left(\vec{u}\cdot\nabla(u\vec{i}+ v\vec{j})\right)+ \left(\vec{v}\cdot\nabla(u\vec{i}+ v\vec{j})\right)[/tex]
[tex]= \left(u\frac{\partial u}{\partial x}+ u\frac{\partial u}{\partial y}\right)+ \left(v\frac{\partial u}{\partial x}+ v\frac{\partial u}{\partial y}\right)+ \left(u\frac{\partial v}{\partial x}+ u\frac{\partial v}{\partial y}\right)+ \left(v\frac{\partial v}{\partial x}+ v\frac{\partial v}{\partial y}\right)[/tex].
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: sa1988
HallsofIvy said:
No, what your lecturer did is correct. Perhaps what you are missing is that [itex]\vec{u}\cdot\nabla[/itex], with [itex]\vec{u}= u\vec{i}+ v\vec{j}[/itex] is equal to [itex]u\frac{\partial }{\partial x}+ v\frac{\partial}{\partial y}[/itex] and that, being a scalar operator "multiplied" by [itex]\vec{u}= u\vec{I}+ v\vec{j}[/itex] is "multiplied" by both u and v: [tex](\vec{u}\cdot\nabla)\vec{u}= \left(\vec{u}\cdot\nabla(u\vec{i}+ v\vec{j})\right)+ \left(\vec{v}\cdot\nabla(u\vec{i}+ v\vec{j})\right)[/tex]
[tex]= \left(u\frac{\partial u}{\partial x}+ u\frac{\partial u}{\partial y}\right)+ \left(v\frac{\partial u}{\partial x}+ v\frac{\partial u}{\partial y}\right)+ \left(u\frac{\partial v}{\partial x}+ u\frac{\partial v}{\partial y}\right)+ \left(v\frac{\partial v}{\partial x}+ v\frac{\partial v}{\partial y}\right)[/tex].

Thanks for the reply.

I'm a little confused though. I can't see how you get this bit:

[tex](\vec{u}\cdot\nabla)\vec{u}= \left(\vec{u}\cdot\nabla(u\vec{i}+ v\vec{j})\right)+ \left(\vec{v}\cdot\nabla(u\vec{i}+ v\vec{j})\right)[/tex]And, regarding the the final result:

[tex]= \left(u\frac{\partial u}{\partial x}+ u\frac{\partial u}{\partial y}\right)+ \left(v\frac{\partial u}{\partial x}+ v\frac{\partial u}{\partial y}\right)+ \left(u\frac{\partial v}{\partial x}+ u\frac{\partial v}{\partial y}\right)+ \left(v\frac{\partial v}{\partial x}+ v\frac{\partial v}{\partial y}\right)[/tex]

Is there a way of writing that in vector form?

One thing I did notice is that I messed up by forgetting that in (u⋅∇) , ∂/∂x is not commutative, so I was doing (∇⋅u)u, which is different.

So now I'm getting

(u⋅∇)u = (ux, uu)⋅(∂/∂x, ∂/∂y) (ux + uy)
= (ux∂/∂x + uy∂/∂y) (ux + uy)
= (ux∂(ux)/∂x + ux∂(uy)/∂x + uy∂(ux)/∂y + uy∂(uy)/∂y)

Which I then apply to the given velocity field u = (y, t-x), to get:

Du/Dt = ∂u/∂t + (u⋅∇)u

= (0, 1) + (y ∂/∂x + (t-x) ∂/∂y) * (y, t-x)
= (0, 1) + (y ∂(y)/∂x + (t-x)∂(y)/∂y, y ∂(t-x)/∂x + (t-x)∂(t-x)/∂y)
= (0, 1) + ( 0 + t-x , -y + 0)

= (t-x, 1-y)

Have I gone wrong here?

I've found this on wikipedia, which seems to reflect the same process I've just used:

538885b73da17a0e7211a97108354461.png


Thanks.
 
HallsofIvy said:
No, what your lecturer did is correct. Perhaps what you are missing is that [itex]\vec{u}\cdot\nabla[/itex], with [itex]\vec{u}= u\vec{i}+ v\vec{j}[/itex] is equal to [itex]u\frac{\partial }{\partial x}+ v\frac{\partial}{\partial y}[/itex] and that, being a scalar operator "multiplied" by [itex]\vec{u}= u\vec{I}+ v\vec{j}[/itex] is "multiplied" by both u and v: [tex](\vec{u}\cdot\nabla)\vec{u}= \left(\vec{u}\cdot\nabla(u\vec{i}+ v\vec{j})\right)+ \left(\vec{v}\cdot\nabla(u\vec{i}+ v\vec{j})\right)[/tex]

Something's gone wrong here. If [itex]\mathbf{u} = (u,v)[/itex] with respect to cartesian coordinates [itex](x,y)[/itex] then indeed [tex]\mathbf{u} \cdot \nabla = u \frac{\partial}{\partial x} + v \frac{\partial}{\partial y}[/tex] but [tex] (\mathbf{u} \cdot \nabla)\mathbf{u} = \left( u \frac{\partial u}{\partial x} + v \frac{\partial u}{\partial y}, u \frac{\partial v}{\partial x} + v \frac{\partial v}{\partial y} \right)[/tex] and hence [tex] \frac{D\mathbf{u}}{Dt} = \left(\frac{\partial u}{\partial t} + u \frac{\partial u}{\partial x} + v \frac{\partial u}{\partial y}, \frac{\partial v}{\partial t} + u \frac{\partial v}{\partial x} + v \frac{\partial v}{\partial y} \right).[/tex]
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: sa1988

Similar threads

  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
21
Views
2K
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K