Aerospace people get in here quick, i w/ a question.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the design and stability of aircraft wings, specifically focusing on the concept of dihedral angle and its implications for stability. Participants also explore the properties of aviation fuels, including their weights and densities, and the importance of unit conversion in engineering contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants explain that the upward angling of wings, known as dihedral, primarily contributes to lateral stability by creating a coupling between roll and yaw.
  • Others mention additional benefits of dihedral, such as keeping wings clear of ground obstacles during taxiing.
  • One participant seeks clarification on whether dihedral relates to lateral or longitudinal stability.
  • Participants provide detailed information about aviation turbine fuels, specifically Jet A-1 and Jet A, including their specifications and density ranges.
  • There is a discussion about the weight of aviation fuel, with some participants estimating it to be around 6.8 lb/gal based on specific gravity.
  • Some participants emphasize the importance of being fluent in both SI and English units for engineering students, citing the global market's reliance on SI.
  • One participant shares personal experiences related to preparing for an aviation-related test, highlighting the relevance of the discussed topics.
  • There are differing opinions on the transition to metric units in the U.S., with some expressing indifference towards the unit system used in calculations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the role of dihedral in providing stability, but there is no consensus on the specifics of fuel weight and the necessity of unit conversion fluency. The discussion on unit systems reveals differing perspectives, indicating a lack of agreement on the transition to metric standards.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference the historical context of the U.S. transition to metric units, noting challenges and resistance faced during the process. There are also mentions of unresolved mathematical conversions related to fuel density and weight.

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most airplanes are designed so that the outer tips of the wing are higher than the wing roots attached to the fuselage in order to:

streamline the fuselage.










i remember that's the reason, but i think I'm wrong.
 
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The angling of the wings upwards is known as dihedral. Its main purpose is for stability. It produces a coupling between roll and yaw, that makes an aircraft more pleasant, and safer to fly.

There may be other advantages, such as keeping the wings clear of ground obstacles when taxiing, but the stability effect is the main reason AFAIK.
 
ceptimus said:
The angling of the wings upwards is known as dihedral. Its main purpose is for stability. It produces a coupling between roll and yaw, that makes an aircraft more pleasant, and safer to fly.

There may be other advantages, such as keeping the wings clear of ground obstacles when taxiing, but the stability effect is the main reason AFAIK.

thanks! another question if you could help please:

the standard weight for gasoline used in an airplane is: ?
 
ceptimus said:
The angling of the wings upwards is known as dihedral. Its main purpose is for stability. It produces a coupling between roll and yaw, that makes an aircraft more pleasant, and safer to fly.

There may be other advantages, such as keeping the wings clear of ground obstacles when taxiing, but the stability effect is the main reason AFAIK.

by the way is that: lateral stability or longitudinal stability?






thanks
 
AVIATION TURBINE FUEL (JET FUEL)

CIVIL JET FUELS

Aviation turbine fuels are used for powering jet and turbo-prop engined aircraft and are not to be confused with Avgas. Outside former communist areas, there are currently two main grades of turbine fuel in use in civil commercial aviation : Jet A-1 and Jet A, both are kerosine type fuels. There is another grade of jet fuel, Jet B which is a wide cut kerosine (a blend of gasoline and kerosine) but it is rarely used except in very cold climates.

JET A-1

Jet A-1 is a kerosine grade of fuel suitable for most turbine engined aircraft. It is produced to a stringent internationally agreed standard, has a flash point above 38°C (100°F) and a freeze point maximum of -47°C. It is widely available outside the U.S.A. Jet A-1 meets the requirements of British specification DEF STAN 91-91 (Jet A-1), (formerly DERD 2494 (AVTUR)), ASTM specification D1655 (Jet A-1) and IATA Guidance Material (Kerosine Type), NATO Code F-35.

JET A

Jet A is a similar kerosine type of fuel, produced to an ASTM specification and normally only available in the U.S.A. It has the same flash point as Jet A-1 but a higher freeze point maximum (-40°C). It is supplied against the ASTM D1655 (Jet A) specification.

(see http://imartinez.etsin.upm.es/dat1/eCombus.htm for a comparison of fuel properties including Jet-A).

JET B

Jet B is a distillate covering the naphtha and kerosine fractions. It can be used as an alternative to Jet A-1 but because it is more difficult to handle (higher flammability), there is only significant demand in very cold climates where its better cold weather performance is important. In Canada it is supplied against the Canadian Specification CAN/CGSB 3.23

MILITARY

JP-4

JP-4 is the military equivalent of Jet B with the addition of corrosion inhibitor and anti-icing additives; it meets the requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-PRF-5624S Grade JP-4. JP-4 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-88 AVTAG/FSII (formerly DERD 2454),where FSII stands for Fuel Systems Icing Inhibitor. NATO Code F-40.

JP-5

JP-5 is a high flash point kerosine meeting the requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-PRF-5624S Grade JP-5. JP-5 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-86 AVCAT/FSII (formerly DERD 2452). NATO Code F-44.

JP-8

JP-8 is the military equivalent of Jet A-1 with the addition of corrosion inhibitor and anti-icing additives; it meets the requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-T-83188D. JP-8 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-87 AVTUR/FSII (formerly DERD 2453). NATO Code F-34.

============================

The wings are angled up (dihedral) for lateral stability. Longitudinal stability is produced by sweeing the wings back, in addition to stablilizers, and counterweight.
 
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thanks, but i need the weight in lbs. like is it 6lbs./U.S. gal. or 7.5 lbs./U.S. gal.?




thanks
 
Well the fuel comparison has Jet-A fuel density in the range of 780..840 kg/m3.

I think one should have access to a English (Bristish) to SI conversion table.

1 kg = 2.2046 lbm

3.785412 E-03 m3 = 1 gal

I would strongly encourage all US students in engineering to become fluent in SI as well as English units, and be able to easily and accurately conver between the two systems. In a global market, where most of the world uses SI, it is advisable to know both. I work in both systems, but prefer SI (mks, cgs).
 
Astronuc said:
Well the fuel comparison has Jet-A fuel density in the range of 780..840 kg/m3.

I think one should have access to a English (Bristish) to SI conversion table.

1 kg = 2.2046 lbm

3.785412 E-03 m3 = 1 gal

I would strongly encourage all US students in engineering to become fluent in SI as well as English units, and be able to easily and accurately conver between the two systems. In a global market, where most of the world uses SI, it is advisable to know both. I work in both systems, but prefer SI (mks, cgs).

My major is geoscience, and I'm taking the AFOQT (air force officer qualifying test) in which I'm on the aviation information part, and since I'm working for a fighter/bomber track, i have to make a good score on it.





:frown:
 
The specific gravity of JETA which is the most common fuel used is, on average, about .82. That means it's equivilent to about 6.8 Lbm/gal.

You're on the fighter/bomber track and you're asking what dihedral is for? You've got some serious studying to do.
 
Last edited:
  • #10
Astronuc said:
I would strongly encourage all US students in engineering to become fluent in SI as well as English units, and be able to easily and accurately conver between the two systems. In a global market, where most of the world uses SI, it is advisable to know both. I work in both systems, but prefer SI (mks, cgs).
Indeed, in engineering, even just in college, you will likely need to use both.
 
  • #11
russ_watters said:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Astronuc
I would strongly encourage all US students in engineering to become fluent in SI as well as English units, and be able to easily and accurately conver between the two systems. In a global market, where most of the world uses SI, it is advisable to know both. I work in both systems, but prefer SI (mks, cgs).
Indeed, in engineering, even just in college, you will likely need to use both.

Just an added note!
I don't know how many in the US are aware, but several years ago, Congress decided to make a complete conversion to a Metric standard, however some unions decided to throw their weight around. (In those days unions were much stronger in the US than they are now). These unions demanded that taxpayers be made to pay for all metric tools required by tradesmen, so Congress decided to forget it. As result, we are changing but very slowly and irregularly. Additionally we have to concern ourselves with the added step of constant conversions back and forth.

KM
 
  • #12
Personally I could care less what system of units I use in calculations. They are both equal in my opinion. The one thing that we have not done is go over to metric in our designs. That to me is OK too. I have a much better feeling for what a thousandths of an inch is versus a tenth of a millimeter and such.
 

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