Aliens/Intelligant Life forms, do they exist?

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the existence of extraterrestrial life and the statistical likelihood of contact between humans and intelligent life forms. Participants argue that with the vast number of planets in the universe, it is statistically probable that life exists elsewhere, particularly in environments like Europa, a moon of Jupiter, which is believed to have a subsurface ocean. However, the debate also highlights the complexities of defining life and the conditions necessary for its emergence, emphasizing that our understanding is limited to Earth-based life forms.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of astrobiology and the conditions necessary for life.
  • Familiarity with planetary science, particularly regarding Europa and Mars.
  • Knowledge of statistical methods in assessing probabilities of extraterrestrial life.
  • Basic concepts of biochemistry, including amino acids and DNA structure.
NEXT STEPS
  • Research the latest findings on Europa's subsurface ocean and its potential for life.
  • Study the statistical models used to estimate the probability of extraterrestrial civilizations.
  • Explore the concept of alternative biochemistries that could support life beyond Earth.
  • Investigate the implications of the Fermi Paradox and theories regarding the absence of contact with extraterrestrial life.
USEFUL FOR

This discussion is beneficial for scientists, researchers, and enthusiasts in the fields of astrobiology, planetary science, and anyone interested in the philosophical implications of extraterrestrial life and its potential forms.

  • #31
Do you think that they will ever contact us or vice versa?
Ah... didn't really think about this one. Unless we take the most drastic interpretations of evolutionary convergence, it is far less likely that two populations were separately evolve to a similarity that would allow a reasonable form of communication.
But you never know...
 
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  • #32
Do you think that they will ever contact us or vice versa?

what FZ+ said, but that's not to mention the difficulty created by the vastness of space, and the light-speed restriction on all information.
 
  • #33
i'll do as mentat did and insert my opinions on the matter:

1)i agree that life may be possible on other planets, though a very slim chance.

2)i agree that this life may take a very alien form. (i.e. not like life on Earth in any respects.)

3)i think the chances of this life being "intelligent" (in our use of the word) is next to nil. our human intelligence is a result of a series of completely random genetic mutations which would practically never take place again in the universe.

4)i think this life might be so alien, we might not classify it as life. we need a wider definition of it.

5) the alien life form will definatly not be anything like ET or Star Wars or any other sci-fi characters that have two arms, two legs, two eyes, and green skin.

6) i wonder, would an alien life form still follow the evolutionary process, or not? initially, i'd say not, but that might be because we can't understand what other process it could take.
 
  • #34
Greetings !

Good one Phobos !
Originally posted by FZ+
Ah... didn't really think about this one. Unless we take the most drastic interpretations of evolutionary convergence, it is far less likely that two populations were separately evolve to a similarity that would allow a reasonable form of communication.
But you never know...
I do not think that is entirely correct. If they are
intellegent than they will have to have a pretty evolved
perspective on the world, however, that perspective will be
the result of the world - guided and shaped by its apparent
principles. Hence, some simularities and common points
of reference will have to exist.

Live long and prosper.
 
  • #35
First of all, 'life' needs to be defined. Because the chance that there are human-like beings somewhere else is pretty slim, but the chance of silicon-based life being somewhere out there might be more possible. So, what is life?

Another thing is, the universe being 'infinite' (in some dimensions), or containing an infinite amount of stars and planets (unlikely, or do it seems...) doesn't mean life MUST exist somewhere else besides here. Like, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... ... n is infinite, but no two numbers are alike.
 
  • #36
Originally posted by Tail
First of all, 'life' needs to be defined. Because the chance that there are human-like beings somewhere else is pretty slim, but the chance of silicon-based life being somewhere out there might be more possible. So, what is life?

you are repeating others. (me mainly!) :wink:

Another thing is, the universe being 'infinite' (in some dimensions), or containing an infinite amount of stars and planets (unlikely, or do it seems...) doesn't mean life MUST exist somewhere else besides here. Like, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... ... n is infinite, but no two numbers are alike.

well, the universe is not infinite. but if it were you'd be right. life on other planets would be inevitable.
 
  • #37
Greetings !

Welcome to PF Tail ! :smile:
Originally posted by Tail
Another thing is, the universe being 'infinite' (in some dimensions), or containing an infinite amount of stars and planets (unlikely, or do it seems...) doesn't mean life MUST exist somewhere else besides here. Like, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... ... n is infinite, but no two numbers are alike.
I think maximus slightly misunderstood you. I do not think
you're right here. In math numbers are defined to represent
different amounts, for example, and they can indeed be infinite
and different. In an infinite Universe all that needs to be done
for life to form is for the availible materials to mix in certain
general ways so it's not reasonable for it not to happen in infinity.

Live long and prosper.
 
  • #38
Originally posted by drag
Greetings !

Welcome to PF Tail ! :smile:
Thanks! :smile:

I think maximus slightly misunderstood you. I do not think
you're right here. In math numbers are defined to represent
different amounts, for example, and they can indeed be infinite
and different. In an infinite Universe all that needs to be done
for life to form is for the availible materials to mix in certain
general ways so it's not reasonable for it not to happen in infinity.
Good point! I'm not sure what to say...


maximus-
I'm sorry, I just rushed through the posts without reading them carefully. I won't do that anymore.

And, as drag pointed out, you misunderstood my second point a bit...
 
  • #39
I think that there is almost certainly life in our Universe other than on Earth, and there is a good chance that there is at least one other intellegent species. However, knowing what we do about the laws of physics, it is highly unlikely that we'll contact each other within the next thousand years or so because of the vast distances between stars (as of yet I wouldn't even consider intergalactic communication). Even if there is intellegent life close enough to contact us before that, it is quite possibly so different from terrestrial life that there might be serious communication difficulties. Obviously, since we don't know of any extraterrestrial life, no one can be sure just how different from Earth's life it could be. Unless faster than light travel is invented by one of the civilizations, any contact at all is unlikely, and visitations even less so.
 
  • #40
We should consider that in an infinite universe everything is possible , there could even be (im not religious) a god floating around somewhere bothering his tiny creations
If you look at the vastness of space it would be arrogant to say we are the only ones to exist while on the Earth alone more than 60 millions species live:wink:





in the abundance of water the fool gets thirsty
Bob Marley
 
  • #41
Originally posted by demoremda
We should consider that in an infinite universe everything is possible , there could even be (im not religious) a god floating around somewhere bothering his tiny creations

this is true. the problem is our universe is not infinite in size.

If you look at the vastness of space it would be arrogant to say we are the only ones to exist while on the Earth alone more than 60 millions species live:wink:

the fact that there are so many species on Earth is irrelevant. we could not isolate one species. and at one point we were all the same.
 
  • #42
Originally posted by maximus
this is true. the problem is our universe is not infinite in size.

mmm altough I am not schooled proffesionally in physics i don't believe in boundaries, i understand part of the infinite finite models but i can't help feel our knowledge just doesn't cut it yet in comprehensing everything that's out there


the fact that there are so many species on Earth is irrelevant. we could not isolate one species. and at one point we were all the same.

I do see this as a major fact, as well as the fact that most of our universe is hydrogen, but i don't understand what you mean with isolating one species, what has that to do whith other races?
i enjoy the discussion though


remember moneo, when i told you why eternity couldn't be proven?
yes you said no one would live long enough to prove it.
-Emperor Leto II-
 
  • #43
mmm haven't figuered the the way to work whith the font types
 
  • #44
Originally posted by demoremda
I do see this as a major fact, as well as the fact that most of our universe is hydrogen, but i don't understand what you mean with isolating one species, what has that to do whith other races?
i enjoy the discussion though

what i mean is that each species on Earth is not a separate miracle of its own. life was not createda and evolved for each. we were all the same life at one point,but evolution steered us into different directions.
 
  • #45
If I may borrow from Michio Kaku as well, I'd like to bring up the point he made about how if there were intelligent life, it wouldn't necessarily be within Earth's lifespan. There may have already been an alien life form or two that passed by Earth on an interstellar mission of some sort, but we were just forming unicellular organisms so they didn't bother, and by the time we became advanced enough to observe our universe, they had already died out.
 
  • #46
I believe there is life out there, what form it might take and if its possible to communicate with it just complicates an already complicated issue.

When contemplating this question you have to make assumptions, let's assume humans are average in all respects, not evolutionally retarded or advanced, of average intelligence and so on. With no way of knowing how advanced human progress will ever reach (totally telepathic, able to control all aspects of the environment etc etc etc) we must assume we are in a stage of technological and evolutionary infancy otherwise this is as good as it may ever get. Take the age of the Universe and our current stage of human progress (assume infancy), and it would seem likely if we are average then there is little hope of ever having contact with another intelligent life form before the Universe comes to its own end (however that may be) if we agree that the speed of light is the limiting factor in the ability to communicate.

If faster than light communication or some type of time travel or instant method of transportation is discovered and developed then the chances of interaction with another totally separate form of life (or even simialr form of life) may increase slightly above what it is now, but not by too many factors only because of the distances involved. Its like buying one lottery ticket or one thousand lottery tickets, even with one thousand tickets your odds of winning are next to nothing. We have to find a way of reducing the odds to be able to find other life or have them find us.

Nuff said
 
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  • #47
could life be created outside of a planet? like in a nebula or protostar cloud for instance?
 
  • #48
that seems to me to be a greatly overlooked yet surprisingly possible suggestion.
 
  • #49
Originally posted by maximus
what i mean is that each species on Earth is not a separate miracle of its own. life was not createda and evolved for each. we were all the same life at one point,but evolution steered us into different directions.

Yes off course that's true, that doesn't mean it couldn't be different on other worlds, or that the same evolution path occurs, that's the random beauty of the universe
For a good story on interstellar communication (sf but well thought out) yall should read Greg Bears anvil of stars
 
  • #50
Originally posted by Viper
Do you think that they will ever contact us or vice versa?
I can`t believe that with all the Trillions of planets there are there is not one planet with remotely the same conditions or atmosphere of earth?


The errors in this statement are unbelievable!

1. The process of thinking never takes place while someone is producing an answer to this question. It is merely accessing already existing data and producing it, not THINKING.

2. Who is "they" and who is "us". Some organisms on Earth did not come from non-life on our Earth - they came from outerspace. Humans posess a collection of life that came from outspace to Earth via meteors.

3. "trillions" of planets? Who provided you with this number?

4. You say you can't believe not another planet has remotely our conditions. In fact scientists have identified MANY planets that have our same make-up.
 
  • #51


Greetings !
Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
2. Who is "they" and who is "us". Some organisms on Earth did not come from non-life on our Earth - they came from outerspace. Humans posess a collection of life that came from outspace to Earth via meteors.
Really ? And who told you that if I may ask ?
The most likely explanation still talks about hydro-thermal
vents and no solution is as yet considered too be likely
enough to be called correct.
Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
3. "trillions" of planets? Who provided you with this number?
Well, he didn't say how many trillions... :wink:
Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
4. You say you can't believe not another planet has remotely our conditions. In fact scientists have identified MANY planets that have our same make-up.
Really ? Please, ellaborate. (Notice: he said conditions NOT
make-up.)
Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
The errors in this statement are unbelievable!
Indeed.

Also, lighten up dude ! :smile:

Peace and long life.
 
  • #52


BTW, I recently saw a chapter of Evolution (a remarkable
series, btw) about mating and a scientist proposed a
possibilty that says our brains evolved as a means of
sexual prowess, same as a peacock's tail. Fascinating !
(I wonder if he'll personally succeed in supporting this
idea with sufficient evidence before some feminist fanatic
shoots him... )
 
  • #53


Originally posted by drag
BTW, I recently saw a chapter of Evolution (a remarkable
series, btw) about mating and a scientist proposed a
possibilty that says our brains evolved as a means of
sexual prowess, same as a peacock's tail. Fascinating !
(I wonder if he'll personally succeed in supporting this
idea with sufficient evidence before some feminist fanatic
shoots him... )

Drag. Simply put the 100% meaning of life is to pass on your genes. More specifically, the meaning of life is to produce offspring which are able to produce their own offspring.

Absolutely positively without any doubt whatsover, every single species and every single factor, adaptation, ability, quality etc... evolved for the sole purpose of breeding.

You have eyes to see your mates, and do avoide anything which will inhibit your breeding

You have ears to hear your mates and avoid anything which will inhibit breeding.

Legs to find mates and escape anti-mating factos

SO of course the brain serves one purpose - to be more successfull at finding mates which will be able to produce offspring.

It's nothing new in biology.
 
  • #54


Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
Drag. Simply put the 100% meaning of life is to pass on your genes. More specifically, the meaning of life is to produce offspring which are able to produce their own offspring.

Absolutely positively without any doubt whatsover, every single species and every single factor, adaptation, ability, quality etc... evolved for the sole purpose of breeding.

You have eyes to see your mates, and do avoide anything which will inhibit your breeding

You have ears to hear your mates and avoid anything which will inhibit breeding.

Legs to find mates and escape anti-mating factos

SO of course the brain serves one purpose - to be more successfull at finding mates which will be able to produce offspring.

It's nothing new in biology.
You are correct in general. However, the specifics are still
quite debatable: Was it the advantage of the people with
the larger brains who used tools and improved them that was
the primary cause for the development of our brain (as was
thought until now) or was it the ability to attract females and control more of them directly by being smarter as well as
get rid of competition by displaying greater wit ?

Live long and prosper.
 
  • #55


Originally posted by drag
You are correct in general. However, the specifics are still
quite debatable: Was it the advantage of the people with
the larger brains who used tools and improved them that was
the primary cause for the development of our brain (as was
thought until now) or was it the ability to attract females and control more of them directly by being smarter as well as
get rid of competition by displaying greater wit ?

Live long and prosper.


Firstly, no I am correct in whole. I am trained in biology to the highest degree possible. And specifically, beyond that, trained in neuroscience.

You exactly answered yourself. HomoSapiens who were able to use tools could perhaps access food quicker, and not be the ones with no food in the end. They could use tools to fight off predators better and thus live longer and breed more.

Abslolutely every single factor and motivation is to pass on your genes. It is not ones individual choice - it is a preditermined requirement of being ALIVE.
 
  • #56


Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
HomoSapiens who were able to use tools could perhaps access food quicker, and not be the ones with no food in the end.
But maybe that was just the side-effect. Purhaps the primary
reason was the fact that a girl would go with the dude
who understands her better and can ammuse her and directly,
because of that, treats her better and attracts her more.

Live long and prosper.
 
  • #57


Originally posted by drag
But maybe that was just the side-effect. Purhaps the primary
reason was the fact that a girl would go with the dude
who understands her better and can ammuse her and directly,
because of that, treats her better and attracts her more.

Live long and prosper.


Error.

"go with the dude".

Pre- Homo Sapiens do not pair of life. There is no relationship between them.

Secondly, she would not "go with" anyone. A male sees a female he wishes to mate with and does it - the female has NO choice in the matter.
 
  • #58


Greetings PR88 !
Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
Pre- Homo Sapiens do not pair of life. There is no relationship between them.
?! Even insects have, sometimes rather ellaborate, mating rituals.:wink:
Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
Secondly, she would not "go with" anyone. A male sees a female he wishes to mate with and does it - the female has NO choice in the matter.
We'd wish...

Live long and prosper.
 
  • #59


Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
Secondly, she would not "go with" anyone. A male sees a female he wishes to mate with and does it - the female has NO choice in the matter.

Wouldn't that solve a lot of problems. :smile: :smile: :smile:
 
  • #60
Originally posted by maximus
could life be created outside of a planet? like in a nebula or protostar cloud for instance?

there are such speculations...e.g., life forming in the cores of comets (heated via radioactive decay, the cores would provide shelter from space, a source of liquid water, a source of organic compounds in close contact, etc.)

obviously, there's no evidence that it has happened.
 

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