# Alternative ways to power hho cell without alternator?

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1. Jul 7, 2015

### Patrick Atkins

Hi my name is Patrick I have been trying to find new ways to power a hho generator in my car ,the problem is that yes you can have great mpg increase but you have to limit the amount of gas being produced ,to control the amount of amparge ,so it does not drag on alternator and thus decrease the mpg ,my question is what can I do to eliminate this problem ,I have thought of solar panels ? Or a small wind turbine ontop of car? Please help!

2. Jul 7, 2015

### jim hardy

I don't see a physics problem here.
At what rate do you make HHO ?
How much power do you have to put into your water catalyzer to make that much HHO ?
That much power is what percentage of your engine's power at cruising speed?

Until you know those things you don't know whether you have a problem, much less how to approach it.

3. Jul 7, 2015

### Staff: Mentor

Welcome to the PF.

Do you have references about improving gas mileage by adding hydrogen? Making it with power from your engine would seem to be a losing proposition...

4. Jul 7, 2015

### Staff: Mentor

Well, if you power the cell using a separate source of energy, that wouldn't violate conservation of energy. But using a wind turbine or the alternator would.

5. Jul 7, 2015

### jim hardy

The HHO enthusiasts believe that adding HHO to the air-fuel mix causes combustion to proceed much faster,

making the engine more closely resemble an ideal OTTO cycle with constant volume combustion segment 2-3.
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_cycle

Combustion would ideally take place at top dead center
in reality it starts maybe 30 degrees before and continues well after.. Their approach is to add HHO until the engine's knock sensor detects early combustion and retards the spark.

I understand the premise. It's not perpetual motion, just moving a real cycle closer to ideal..
But I remain skeptical as to practicality. Seems to me a mix with enough HHO in it to do any good would backfire terribly. Indeed a friend of mine blew up his intake manifold.

old jim

Last edited: Jul 7, 2015
6. Jul 7, 2015

7. Jul 7, 2015

### jim hardy

The latter.

The combustible HHO added to the fuel-air mix is supposed to speed up flame propagation outward from the sparkplug.
That left edge of the OTTO cycle is curved in a real engine because combustion isn't instantaneous, they're hoping to square it up a bit.
Knock sensor keeps it from wrecking the engine.

8. Jul 7, 2015

### Staff: Mentor

In that case, why speculate. All the elements are within reach.

• Alternator efficiencies peak at 60%.
• The electrolysis of water in standard conditions requires a theoretical minimum of 237 kJ of electrical energy input to dissociate each mole of water, which is the standard Gibbs free energy of formation of water
• Any shop with a dynamometer can inject H and O from bottles into the fuel-air mixture, and directly measure the Otto Cycle improvements. This link is to someone who did it. His comment was, " I have never found a HHO device that could run an engine in a closed loop arrangement (Water for Fuel) without an additional fuel source. In every instance they turned out to be scams or would not allow testing ."

9. Jul 7, 2015