Ambiguity when labeling arrows

  • Context: High School 
  • Thread starter Thread starter etotheipi
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of labels on vectors in free body diagrams, particularly concerning their representation of magnitude and direction. Participants explore the implications of labeling vectors and the potential for confusion when the direction of a vector is misidentified, leading to negative values.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the label on a vector, which can take on negative values, represents a "signed magnitude" rather than just magnitude.
  • Another participant agrees with the idea that the label represents the component of the vector along the direction indicated by the arrow.
  • A different participant asserts that the arrow in a free body diagram represents a vector, not a magnitude, emphasizing that while the length of the arrow correlates with magnitude, vectors themselves are not inherently positive or negative.
  • One participant expresses satisfaction with the idea that the relationship between force and its components can be expressed mathematically, noting that the force can be positive or negative depending on its direction relative to the arrow.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the interpretation of vector labels, with some asserting that the label should indicate a vector component while others emphasize that it represents a vector itself. The discussion remains unresolved as differing viewpoints persist.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the definitions and assumptions regarding the representation of vectors and magnitudes, which may affect the clarity of the discussion. The relationship between vector direction and its algebraic representation is also not fully explored.

etotheipi
This question is unbelievably silly however I thought I'd ask it anyway. The label on a vector (e.g. a force in a free body diagram) often represents the magnitude, and if it is algebraic (##F, N, W## etc.) we can solve for its size. If our prior conviction about the direction of the vector turns out to be incorrect, we might end up with a negative value. Whilst this is not a problem, as we just end up with the vector pointing in the opposite direction, it means that the label cannot be the magnitude since it can quite happily take on negative values. In this case, what does the label represent? Could it be a "signed magnitude", if that's even a thing?

My prior pattern of thought was to use the magnitude to convert to the one dimensional component vectors in the direction being considered (e.g. ##(N \cos{\theta}) \hat{i}) ##. Evidently, the maths works out either way, however the definition of the label is a little shaky. Is this perhaps just a case of the limitations of a force diagram?
 
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etotheipi said:
My prior pattern of thought was to use the magnitude to convert to the one dimensional component vectors in the direction being considered
Seem ok to me: The label represents the component along the unit vector represented by the arrow.
 
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etotheipi said:
The label on a vector (e.g. a force in a free body diagram) often represents the magnitude,

Well, it shouldn't. The arrow on a free body diagram represents a vector, not a magnitude. Yes, the length of the arrow is proportional to the magnitude, but the arrow itself represents a vector.

Vectors, by the way, are neither positive nor negative. Magnitudes are never negative. Vector components can be either positive or negative.
 
A.T. said:
Seem ok to me: The label represents the component along the unit vector represented by the arrow.

I quite like this picture, since then we have ##F = |F||\hat{n}|\cos{\theta}## which reduces to ##|F|## if the actual force lies along the direction of the arrow, and ##-|F|## if the actual force is in the opposite direction! Thanks
 

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