WhoWee
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BP is engaged in solar - but don't expect them to stop pumping any time soon.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ic/59/59267.html
JDoolin said:What was he trying to say; that the whole idea of taking care of everybody is BAD, or is it GOOD?
Is the Tea Party platform that we DON'T want to take care of everybody?
Exactly who is it that they don't want to take care of?
maine75man said:If non-participation is in and of itself a risk factor and the system still pays for non-participants who require some of the costliest levels of benefits, then mandating is efficient. That's exactly the situation the American health care system finds itself in.
Emergency, Critical, Intensive, and End of Life Care are some of the most expensive services in any health care system. In America it's criminal and IMO sub-human to deny them to anyone who both needs and requests such care if you can provide it. Even in cases where such care is in short supply and must be rationed, medical ethics, and the law stand behind rationing on the basis of need as opposed to ability to pay.
Preventive care lowers the risk of people requiring the more extreme "all or nothing medicine mentioned" above. Yet preventative medicine can be denied on a financial basis.
Fair or not we are never going to get a system that makes access to "all or nothing medicine" less universal. So the only way to make the system more efficient is increasing access to preventative care.
Personally I favor the idea of a health insurance voucher system. Give everyone a minimum level of health insurance mandated by the government and paid for with earmarked taxes but purchased from private companies by individuals. If people think vouchers will work for education why not health insurance.
I would have guessed that the main reasons are an increase in the elderly population, and the practices of the drug and insurance industries. But, here's an editorial from 2007 in the New York Times that seems to disagree with that:mege said:Why have health care costs gone up over the past ~45 years?
I don't think that the general level of litigation is unusually high, considering that doctors and hospitals make lots of mistakes. I'm guessing that the genuinely frivolous stuff gets weeded out fairly early in the process.mege said:In addition - the litigation in the medical industry is ridiculous.
Have you considered the vast differences in technology and available care? For example, cancer care is expensive, right? Well chemotherapy was invented in 1965. Before that, there wasn't much in the way of treatment.ThomasT said:I would have guessed that the main reasons are an increase in the elderly population, and the practices of the drug and insurance industries.
1. Pandering: ntr.v. pan·dered, pan·der·ing, pan·ders. 1. To act as a go-between or liaison in sexual intrigues; function as a procurer. 2. To cater to the lower tastes and desires ...
Legal dictionary
1) v. to solicit customers for a prostitute. 2) n. a pimp, who procures customers for a prostitute or lures a woman into prostitution, all for his own profit. 3) v. catering to special interests without any principles, such as a politician who says to whatever group he/she is addressing just what they want to hear to win their support, contributions, or favors.
czelaya said:Because all that pandering gives way to protectionist laws for corporations, special interest groups, and in the end money is taken from everyone to benefit the few.
JDoolin said:Pandering is just (yuck, bleah) not what I meant at all. But even if the government is really working for the electorate, it's still possible for the corporations and special interest groups to trick them (or the electorate, for that matter) into thinking that a certain law would be more in the interests of the people, when it is actually just a front to create a prison slave system, for instance.
That's why I focus so much on transparency. The public needs good data on what our government is doing; and where the money is needed, where the money is going; what the conditions are in the places where the money is going? I'm not saying "trust your government." I'm saying "trust but verify."
What we need to see in public office are patient and long-suffering servants of the public good, who don't mind a little bit of extra scrutiny to keep them from being manipulated by corporations and special interest groups.
I don't know if you've heard the phrase "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." I'm of the strong opinion that we should give it to them. But keep an eye on them to make sure they stay meek.
russ_watters said:Have you considered the vast differences in technology and available care? For example, cancer care is expensive, right? Well chemotherapy was invented in 1965. Before that, there wasn't much in the way of treatment.
The use of technology make things expensive: MRI, CT scan, etc. Drugs themselves become more sophisticated and expensive to discover/invent.
Healthcare costs rise in large part because healthcare itself advances.
Absent the current interference from the federal government I disagree.JDoolin said:...
The idea that friends, neighbors and churches have the resources to provide healthcare to all Americans [...] is quite preposterous.
Nobody. pander: someone who caters to or exploits the weaknesses of othersJDoolin said:... Seriously, who would you rather have them pander to? Whoever is paying you the most?
czelaya said:Sure transparency is good
but I doubt that governments, in general, are ever going to be as transparent as you say.
I don't trust governments just as much as I don't trust corporations. Politicians don't walk into office poor and walk out millionaires because they're angels.
However, again, no corporation, special interest group, or anyone or any entity should be given special privileges in the form of tax breaks, tariffs, and so forth. This is how you minimize manipulation and coercion in markets. We punish those who are responsible and those who are stagnant in markets get subsidized by the tax payers (GM, domestic farmers, Solyndra, and so forth).
Decoupling the hands that bind governments and private industries(not capitalism but corporatism) is what ultimately leads to mismanagement on both sides.
I'm not sure what you mean by giving it to them. I've always been a firm believer of earning everything you acquire.
mheslep said:Nobody. pander: someone who caters to or exploits the weaknesses of others
mheslep said:There are several factors that impact health care costs including new medical technology, an aging population and many others. To my mind these are all secondary to the primary cause which is a lack of a market system in healthcare: there is little to no price information provided to the actual consumer of healthcare. I can look up the price of launching my 1000kg payload into orbit, online, but it is impossible for me as laymen to bypass my insurer to call around to hospitals and get the going rate on a procedure, nor can I get a price on insurance out of state. This state of affairs is largely due to the employer provided health tax break, Medicare and Medicaid insurance - all creations of the federal government.
JDoolin said:Yeah. Thanks.
Check post 407. I really thought pandering meant something else.
So given that definition, I don't want to be pandered to by the government.
I of course agree that increased healthcare costs have something (maybe a lot, maybe mostly) to do with the costs associated with technological advances. It isn't clear to me exactly how much this contributes to the increase.russ_watters said:Have you considered the vast differences in technology and available care? For example, cancer care is expensive, right? Well chemotherapy was invented in 1965. Before that, there wasn't much in the way of treatment.
The use of technology make things expensive: MRI, CT scan, etc. Drugs themselves become more sophisticated and expensive to discover/invent.
Healthcare costs rise in large part because healthcare itself advances.
JDoolin said:If you're going to be a friend, then your attitude should be "I'm going to help out my friends." If you're going to be a an active member of the community, you should say "I'm going to help my community" Likewise, a church member is quite likely to want to help out his or her church.
But if you're running for national political office, you should be aware of all those people that want to be helpful, but that does not release you from doing whatever you can to help as well.
The idea that friends, neighbors and churches have the resources to provide healthcare to all Americans (or protect their water, food, air quality, etc.) is quite preposterous.
mheslep said:Absent the current interference from the federal government I disagree.
The federal government has a revenue of $2+ trillion yet still over spends that by $1.6 trillion, incurring maybe a hundred billion in annual fraud from the current health entitlements alone. The idea that a federal government far removed from its 300 million people can "provide" healthcare is easily the more unlikely of the two approaches.
JDoolin said:I differ in opinion on this. You are giving up too easily. For a government by the people, and for the people, there is no greater imperative than transparency. The people must KNOW what their government is doing in detail so that we may make the appropriate choices when election time is coming around.
JDoolin said:Transparency is important, because we must know WHY these companies are stagnant. We must know why their competitors are not stagnant. Do you think America is the only country in the world who subsidizes their industries? We have a level of transparency in this country that informs us of how much the companies are getting, and how it's being used. That is a good thing. We should also be aware of how much their competitors are being subsidized.
JDoolin said:I am happy to see GM getting subsidized because it means more American jobs but that was in the BILLIONS of dollars. Solyndra got subsidized for a half a billion dollars, and from what I've heard, by the time they got their factories up, somehow the market was already mysteriously flooded with the patented product they intended to sell, and they could not match the price.
Sorry. What I meant is that currently we have corporatism. A union with government and a select few companies that creates an unfair advantage in industry. Eliminate it.JDoolin said:I'm not entirely sure what you mean there.
Yes GM lobbied, but most the effective White House lobbying came from the auto unions here.czelaya said:...A minority of Americans who have invested interest in GM. However, because of their lobbying efforts, ...
mheslep said:Yes GM lobbied, but most the effective White House lobbying came from the auto unions here.
czelaya said:Do you have any links that provide more information on the matter.
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/12/31/for-obama-some-unions-are-more-equal-than-others/The UAW, which has more than 1 million members, announced today the union is endorsing Obama after a unanimous vote of its International Executive Board.
UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said Obama was an inspiring leader who would fight for working families.
From the streets of Chicago to the state Legislature in Springfield, Ill., to the halls of the U.S. Senate, Barack Obama has been a voice for dignity and justice for working people. He has a strong program for a safe and secure America, which will protect our citizens and help our country prosper in a new century.
On every issue that counts, we can count on Barack Obama to stand with our members, our families and our communities.
The Service Employees International Union takes the top prize as President Obama’s favorite labor union. President Andy Stern and Secretary-Treasurer Anna Burger have visited the White House nearly 60 times, including 11 meetings with Obama and another with Vice President Biden.
[...]
Big Labor spent an estimated $450 million on the 2008 election,
russ_watters said:Where can I find those definitions of freedom and equality?
The definition of "equality" isn't in question: it was just about the definition of "opportunity". You essentially argued that opportunity=outcome. I don't think you did a good job of proving that basically because they are pretty much opposites of each other. In any case, it is fine to argue what sounds good to you, but politics is more practical than that: we're discussing, for the most part, how America works and the US was not founded on the idea that opportunity=outcome. This is why quota-based affirmative action consistently fails Supreme Court muster. What you suggest just isn't how it works here. To put a finer point on it:Zarqon said:1) I presented an argument myself, about the fact that people born into poverty have less opportunities than those born into rich families, and that I though this was a type of inequality that can be reduced.
No, poor children should not have less opportunities than the rich. But I think you are misusing the word "opportunity". You are not using it the way it was intended by the founders of the US. Should they? Irrelevant question: no one in here suggested they shouldn't and I think most are aware that that is one of the core functions of government and one of the great triumphs/ innovations of the US.This argument is independent from where I got it, and you can answer it on it's own merits. Do you think poor children should have less opportunities than rich?
Well...at least you acknowledge that the US has a preferred definition...2) The ideas of distinguishing between negative liberty (the absence of constraints, a.k.a. the common US definition) and positive liberty (the possibility of acting) can be found on on wikipedia but also more in depth e.g. at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative/"
czelaya said:By eliminating lobbying and protectionist laws you eliminate special privileges to any groups. I agree completely on transparency for the government on its actions. However, when it comes to markets, government shouldn't dictate how private entities should do business. Let consumers decide that.
This is where we differ. Governments and the general public shouldn't know why companies become stagnant. That's for markets to decide. Companies, for the most part, become stagnant because they don't evolve with consumer’s needs(think of GM engineering gas guzzling automobiles or Sega developing a game console that is difficult for game developers to code). Businesses become stagnant because consumer decides it's not in their best interest to purchase what they are selling. We shouldn't be subsidizing private industries. This gives an unfair advantage to those subsidized industries and further leads to moral hazard (which GM has already clearly shown). If a company can't compete than it deserves to go out of business. Tax payers money going to a select few subsidized industries is a vote we are all forced to pay into for the carelessness of the few.
That's an astonishing statement. This isn't the first time GM has been bailed out, and they have been bailed out previously for the same reasons-mismanagement of assets. They created automobiles that were substandard compared to competitors and they deliberately did so. They didn't invest into newer engine technologies (DOCH, SOHC, variable valve timing, and so forth) that a large segment of the automobile industry was already adapting. Honda and Toyota literally had 4 cylinders, at one time, that were producing as much horsepower as GM V8's. GM created automobiles that were cheaply made and didn't have the reliability that many of their competitors had. Clearly they deserved to go out of business. Why did they act so recklessly? Because they could be bailed by the tax payers. That's not capitalism. That's pure corporatism. The GM bailouts is advocating reckless behavior and punishing responsibility.
My first automobile was Chevrolet Berretta which was an awful automobile with horrific gas mileage and had an interior that was falling apart after 2 years of use. In the case for GM, I made a vote never to purchase a car by such a careless corporation. I wasn't the only one and a majority of Americans did as well. They lost money because they produced an inferior product. If they go out of business who losses? A minority of Americans who have invested interest in GM. However, because of their lobbying efforts, WE ALL WERE FORCED TO HELP A CARELESS COMPANY.
Sorry. What I meant is that currently we have corporatism. A union with government and a select few companies that creates an unfair advantage in industry. Eliminate it.
JDoolin said:I had believed that the incompetent former management of GM were thrown out, when the company was bailed out, last time, but you seem to believe otherwise.
WhoWee said:How did you arrive at the conclusion they were incompetent? Aside from union negotiations - can you cite any of their decisions or components of their business plan that support your statement?
czelaya said:This isn't the first time GM has been bailed out, and they have been bailed out previously for the same reasons-mismanagement of assets. They created automobiles that were substandard compared to competitors and they deliberately did so. They didn't invest into newer engine technologies (DOCH, SOHC, variable valve timing, and so forth) that a large segment of the automobile industry was already adapting. Honda and Toyota literally had 4 cylinders, at one time, that were producing as much horsepower as GM V8's. GM created automobiles that were cheaply made and didn't have the reliability that many of their competitors had. Clearly they deserved to go out of business. Why did they act so recklessly? Because they could be bailed by the tax payers. That's not capitalism. That's pure corporatism. The GM bailouts is advocating reckless behavior and punishing responsibility.
JDoolin said:When GM started making an electric car (Ev1) years ago, they didn't even give the consumers that option. They leased the cars out to people, but then they didn't renew the leases, pulled the cars back in, and demolished them.
JDoolin said:I'm pretty appalled by the mismanagement of GM. I just don't think that closing all of their factories down and firing all the workers is the solution. Instead, try to save the factories and run them right.
JDoolin said:What's already been cited:
I'm pretty appalled by the mismanagement of GM. And I don't think union negotiations are the problem. Czalya's got the problem right, the product they were producing was not made to last, and they just weren't competitive with foreign made products.
I just don't think that closing all of their factories down and firing all the workers is the solution. Instead, try to save the factories and run them right.
fleem said:The federal government is taking my money away from me (that I would have paid only to companies that are most productive) so that these companies will be rewarded for being unproductive. Ergo, either the politicians are mind-bogglingly stupid when it comes to economics, or they are buying votes from the unions. Viva government over the free market!
WhoWee said:Perhaps we should ask Czalya to support his conclusions - that you've now cited as correct?
JDoolin said:Is the whole "Buy American" idea just mind-bogglingly stupid? Should we just go buy whoever makes it the cheapest, fastest, and highest quality. In a lot of situations, I suppose we can't really compete, because our wages are higher; we insist on good lighting, ventilation, safety, emission control, overtime pay, disability insurance.
Is the American model then, to blame? Is the problem with worker's rights? Should we push down our worker's expectations so that we can compete with countries that don't have the same level of human rights?
JDoolin said:Ideally, the consumers ARE the government. Or at least, the electorate puts officials in government who will act on their behalf as consumers, and in this way, the consumers, through the government will dictate how private entities should do business.
JDoolin said:Also, consumers, as consumers, have only one ability. They can either choose to buy or not buy.
JDoolin said:When it comes down to a choice of "buy" or "don't buy" that's not a sufficient choice. That doesn't give me the chance to say "Hey! Stop sitting on your patents and produce this stuff!" It doesn't give me the chance to say "Hey! Stop poisoning our water and air." It doesn't give me the chance to say "Hey, don't close that factory; these people are my friends."
JDoolin said:If a company IS bailed out by the government, I think things should be taken on a case-by-case basis. In some situations you really want to throw the management out. In other cases, it may be an act of God, or a recession, or companies in another country undercutting you. (Okay, acknowledged, that's probably what some of our subsidies are doing to everyone else.)
My point is, yes, punish the management, as much as you are able to do so, but we don't want to see those factories shut down. We don't want to have hundreds or thousands of unemployed. We want to find some way to utilize those resources, hopefully by putting in good management, and producing a good product.
russ_watters said:The real question is: Do they?Based on the founding principles and definitions in the constitution, yes.
Intergenerational earning, wage and educational mobility vary widely across OECD countries. Mobility in earnings, wages and education across generations is relatively low in France, southern European countries, the United Kingdom and the United States. By contrast, such mobility tends to be higher in Australia, Canada and the Nordic countries.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/2/7/45002641.pdf
russ_watters said:Have you considered the vast differences in technology and available care? For example, cancer care is expensive, right? Well chemotherapy was invented in 1965. Before that, there wasn't much in the way of treatment.
The use of technology make things expensive: MRI, CT scan, etc. Drugs themselves become more sophisticated and expensive to discover/invent.
Healthcare costs rise in large part because healthcare itself advances.
mheslep said:There are several factors that impact health care costs including new medical technology, an aging population, high demand for the very good medical treatments and many others. To my mind these are all secondary to the primary cause which is a lack of a market system in healthcare: there is little to no price information provided to the actual consumer. I can look up the price of launching my 1000kg payload into orbit, online, but it is impossible for me as layman to bypass my insurer to call around to hospitals and get the going rate on a procedure, nor can I get a price on insurance out of state. The resulting thinking on health care is evident everywhere, when people just assume some procedure "costs" $100K as if it were written in stone. Nobody says a flight to Florida "costs" $2K (it once did), or a computer with 500K RAM "costs" $2K (it once did) because of course there's a highly competitive market at work ruthlessly constraining the prices of these things. This state of affairs is largely due to government interference on what should be a health market: the employer health tax break since WWII, Medicare and Medicaid insurance - all creations of the federal government.
http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/7298"
apeiron said:Empirical evidence of actual equality of opportunity in a country would be its social mobility stats. And what do we find?
So, for example, near 50% of the economic advantage that high-earning fathers in the US have over low-earning fathers is passed to their sons, compared to sub-20% in Australia, Canada, Norway.
Access to education is of course the key opportunity that needs to be equal in practice the OECD report suggests. This is the positive liberty that would need to be in place.
Supply and demand pertain to cost only in markets. We don't have much a provider-patient market with human medical care in the US.BobG said:Improved technology that becomes cheaper with increased demand. And an increased demand that should mean an increase in supply that counteracts the rise in demand.
There are examples where medical markets exist and costs are contained. See post https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3528221&postcount=369"to be treated in a private hospital equipped with modern technology and staffed in part by American educated and certified doctors for ~10% of the US cost.BobG said:And yet medical costs don't seem to be affected by the same principles that affect other markets. Improved technologies become more expensive with increased demand and we never reach an equilibrium between supply and demand.
Agreed.BobG said:...
I do think the separation between the patient and the cost is a pretty big contribution.
I think there must be any number of industries where people rely on expert advice and for critically important matters.BobG said:Paired with the fact that the doctor is the only one in the transaction that really understands what's being talked about, patients can easily spend much more than is really necessary.
MarcoD said:These statistics are right, but also downplay a bit the role of culture. Yeah, the Northern European countries, and I am delighted the Dutch, do well in social mobility, but that's also because the stiff upper lip British just hold on somewhat more to a society divided among class lines than the somewhat nihilistic and extreme egalitarian Dutch.
BobG said:Improved technology that becomes cheaper with increased demand. And an increased demand that should mean an increase in supply that counteracts the rise in demand. And yet medical costs don't seem to be affected by the same principles that affect other markets. Improved technologies become more expensive with increased demand and we never reach an equilibrium between supply and demand. (Maybe partly because the increased supply occurs for specialist fields that can charge higher prices instead of an increase in general practitioners that provide most of the preventative care.)
I do think the separation between the patient and the cost is a pretty big contribution. Paired with the fact that the doctor is the only one in the transaction that really understands what's being talked about, patients can easily spend much more than is really necessary. When it comes to your own health, better safe than sorry - especially when the insurance company is paying for it.
One change, even if not earth-shattering, should be that doctors can't profit from the diagnostic tests they request. A similar law already is in place for drugs. A doctor can't sell you the drugs he prescribes. You have to buy your medicine somewhere else because trusting the opinion of a doctor that stands to profit from the advice he gives you just invites fraud.
czelaya said:The consumers ARE not the government. Yes, you may have government officials who are consumers themselves but they don't represent everyone individually(markets however do). When a politician votes for a political measure that motivates factors in the market, he/she isn't representing everyone individually. His/her vote is either his/her own... or a percentage of his/her voters... or lobbyist that persuaded him/her to do so. Thus, the politicians' vote is only a voice of a segment of society.
Only having the ability to/not to buy is not a weak choice. I couldn't think of a stronger choice in the ability to voice whether I support or don't support a particular company. Someone choosing to buy or not to buy a particular product causes a company to either prosper or face bankruptcy.
If a company spends money on research and creates a new novel technology or service and acquires a patent-why should it produce it? It's the company's property. It's not entitled to create a product for consumers. Look at the Honda Corp. on how they introduced patent US4535733 (vvt). While Honda does employ this technology in many of their automobiles its chosen to license it's technology to other companies.
If you don't think consumers have any say on how companies engineer their services or goods then look no further than Acura. The Acura TL has been one of Acura's best selling automobiles. It was modestly priced and known for it's sleek, sporty, and elegant styling even thou it was a front wheel drive luxury automobile(oxymoron). It didn't have the rear wheel drive, or high output V8's usually seen from competitors but it was known most importantly for its reliability and conservative styling. Acura in 2008-2009 introduced a new version of the TL that had impeccable quality but conveyed a new styling scheme that consumers didn't want. Sales plummeted for the TL. Acura replied ferociously in making the car more attractive to consumers to retain its market share. Consumer's actions of not purchasing the car caused Acura not to pursue a styling endeavor that it heavily invested into and has caused Acura to lose market share. I'm sure Acura will not make this mistake again but if it does it may cost the company to go out of business.
A company going out of business doesn't necessarily mean factories will close. That's the purpose of chapter 13 bankruptcy.
Markets are very dynamical systems. They're always evolving. Markets are efficient because of the competition inherent in capitalism. This is what drives cost down and makes for better and cheaper goods and services(in most cases). Companies are always closing but new companies and markets are always emerging. You have to let consumers decide on what stays and what goes.
JDoolin said:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you didn't have to license out the technology to other companies. You can hold onto the patent just to prevent it from competing with what you are already building.
And I have also heard there are companies who manage to buy patents, just to sue other companies for patent infringement. It was on an episode of "Planet Money" I heard this. They don't have any offices or workers. Just a front door and a mailbox.
JDoolin said:Alright. I'm a little bit confused about the GM bailout right now. Last I had heard about it, (but I forgot, then remembered) was that GM had paid back its bailout money. A little research on the internet shows almost no verification of that, saying in fact, they just shuffled money from the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP), so I think what actually happened was as part of the Bailout, in fact GM was supposed to be subject to government oversight.
Did they somehow free themselves from the government oversight by shifting the debt from the stimulus package to the TARP money?
John Creighto said:I'm also suspicious of that claim. I can't see how the companies could have went from bankrupt to solvent in such a short period of time if they were on the same playing field as everyone else. Needless to say some in the mass media are trying to make protests look stupid by trying to find ones who don't "Know" the bailout money was paid back. See:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/05/opinion/rushkoff-occupy-wall-street/
I'll have to research further where the money went and how they were able to come up with repayment so quickly.
That would be true if equality of opportunity were the only driver of social mobility. But culture can provide an invisible barrier while socialism attempts to artificially drive social mobility using exactly the types of policies you suggest!apeiron said:Empirical evidence of actual equality of opportunity in a country would be its social mobility stats.
russ_watters said:That would be true if equality of opportunity were the only driver of social mobility. But culture can provide an invisible barrier while socialism attempts to artificially drive social mobility using exactly the types of policies you suggest!
MarcoD said:Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us. Being socialistic without the attitude, or recognizing it's own drawbacks, is meaningless, as the Greeks have shown us.
If a society doesn't care, there's no point in starting caring.
WhoWee said:IMO - the Greeks have a thriving underground economy out of contempt for their Government system.