An Exceptionally Technical Discussion of AESToE

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  • #271
Yes, sure. But it is not available there "Order now, and we will ship *when available*. (Your credit card will not be charged until we ship)"
 
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  • #272
I found it (the book) on books.google.com

Click on 'Google Product Search' on the right at the link below. I got 6 six hits. Not cheap, but well, there you are (anywhere you go - there you are [Kurt Vonnegut]):

http://books.google.com/books?id=upYwZ6cQumoC
 
  • #273
I just went to the amazon.com page for the Conway and Sloane book
Sphere Packings, Lattices, and Groups
where I did see "Currently unavailable"
but
I also saw that I could for $19.80 order the book in digital form,
which let's you read the entire book by logging into amazon
so that you can not only read the whole thing on your computer,
you can copy and print whatever you want from the book.

Maybe this is the beginning of the end for paper books,
and
years from now people will wonder why we had paper libraries,
because we can either log into the web to read our books
or carry them all around in iPod memory.

Tony Smith

PS - Another monster book is
Moonshine beyond the Monster:
The Bridge Connecting Algebra, Modular Forms and Physics
by Terry Gannon
 
  • #274
Tony Smith said:
I also saw that I could for $19.80 order the book in digital form,

In what format does it come?
 
  • #275
Yes. I can't find (at Amazon) this 19.80 thing you refer to Tony. Could you be more specific?
 
  • #276
Mark A Thomas said:
The symmetries of the monster can be calculated using the Planck scale as the cutoff:

(4/a^2)(Mpl^2/me^2)[((Mpl^2/mn^2)^1/65536 -1.00)^-1]^1/2048 = 8.08017424…*10^53

a = fine structure constant, mn = neutron mass, Mpl = Planck mass
The neutron provides for the appropriate (quark-gluon) thermal gauge fields.

The third product term contains an electroweak gauged 4D black hole:

((Mpl^2/mn^2)^1/65536 -1.00)^-1 = (((emn)^2 SbhG/2hc)^1/65536 -1.00)^-1

Where the Bekenstein Hawking entropy Sbh is that of a 4D Schwarzschild mass: Mn = hcMpl/epiGmn^2 = 2.7048 * 10^33 g Also: Sbh = Ss = piMn^2/Mpl^2
From this one can obtain N amount of color as the number of matter fields as binary operators of a CFT as a gauge theory on the S^4.
Mn/2mn = 8.07 *10^56 http://monstrousgaugetheory.googlepages.com/home

You seem to be making a scaling argument similar to Tony Smith's. Given the Monster has 196884 dimensions the Griess B-algebra in one dimension lower might be though as as defining a flux. We might think of the B-algebra as "wrapping" the one less dimension, analagous to a string on an orbifold. From there potentials for otherwise massless fields are generated. The flux due to the form penetrating the 196883 dim space (the B-algebra) then stabilizes the moduli, here the moduli being given by the B-algebra. Then by proceeding this way a tower of KK states can be generated with masses that increase up to the Planck mass.

I will need to try to follow your argument a bit better. This looks pretty much like a scaling argument, similar to what Tony Smith advanced last week.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #277
As to Amazon digital books, see

https://www.amazon.com/gp/digital/sitb/help/learn.html/ref=amb_link_3912402_1?ie=UTF8&navbar=1&details=1&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1VEXNT04VN5RCQKNXTX9&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=257590701&pf_rd_i=293522011&tag=pfamazon01-20

or if that long URL does not work
then
go to Amazon.com
then to books
then in the column on the left go to Special Formats and then to Amazon Upgrade

and you can then see how to buy the digital version of the book.
You may have to buy the paper copy first,
but even if the book is "Currently unavailable" you may be able to buy it by pre-order and then buy the digital version (viewable immediately) for an extra $19.80.

I must have purchased a copy of Conway and Sloane from Amazon, which allowed me to buy the digital version for an additional $19.80 as an upgrade,
and now I can read the book over the net.

Tony Smith
 
  • #278
Tony Smith said:
I must have purchased a copy of Conway and Sloane from Amazon, which allowed me to buy the digital version for an additional $19.80 as an upgrade,
and now I can read the book over the net.

Tony Smith

So, this is like buying the book plus an online only access. If my internet is down, I can't see it. I guess I will just have to wait for a printed copy.
 
  • #279
Monstrous 4D Gauge Theory

Lawrence B. Crowell said:
This looks pretty much like a scaling argument,...

Lawrence B. Crowell

It is not only scaling, it is the running of the RG with a well defined gravi-scalar <phi> with increasing momenta based on a KK tower of excitations(quasi-stable = small change). The equation of monster symmetry has embedded the electroweak VEV baseline and the base gravi-scalar. All gauge couplings including gravitation are in sync. There is a Bose-Einstein distribution form in the equation whereby the black body curve can be obtained and it is wonderfully in-line with the KK distributions. A very real physics object (the black body curve) is generated and a total of 7 QFTs are obtained (from electroweak to Planck) with a 2.136 *10^14 range Higgs sector. When one looks at the gauge coupling scaling starting at electroweak, the weak form of gravity is apparent and it is scaled as the dimensionless form: 2piGmn^2/hc = 5.92*10^-39
Again where mn is the neutron mass providing the massless modes of the chiral fields (gauge fireball, glueballs...) in minkowski spacetime.
 
  • #280
Mark A Thomas said:
It is not only scaling, it is the running of the RG with a well defined gravi-scalar <phi> with increasing momenta based on a KK tower of excitations(quasi-stable = small change). The equation of monster symmetry has embedded the electroweak VEV baseline and the base gravi-scalar. All gauge couplings including gravitation are in sync. There is a Bose-Einstein distribution form in the equation whereby the black body curve can be obtained and it is wonderfully in-line with the KK distributions. A very real physics object (the black body curve) is generated and a total of 7 QFTs are obtained (from electroweak to Planck) with a 2.136 *10^14 range Higgs sector. When one looks at the gauge coupling scaling starting at electroweak, the weak form of gravity is apparent and it is scaled as the dimensionless form: 2piGmn^2/hc = 5.92*10^-39
Again where mn is the neutron mass providing the massless modes of the chiral fields (gauge fireball, glueballs...) in minkowski spacetime.



To be honest one physical motivation for looking at lattices as a way of doing quantum gravity & cosmology was the prospect that physics could be reduced to formalism seen in solid state physics. A lattice defines Voronoi cells which in physics are called Brillouin zones, where phonon states are computed along with the Fermi surface for the conduction band electrons. The symmetry of the lattice determines the spectra of phonons in much the same way that a symmetry group in particle physics determines the structure or states of elementary particles. The particle states are given by eigenstates of Bloch waves on a lattice, which in lattice QCD are analogously seen in Mantin periodic Lagrangians.

There is also a nice thing thing about working in this vein, for it makes the underlying basis, frame or set of states of the theory is linear. Just as we can work with solid state physics with some comparative ease, at least with weakly interacting phonons and electrons, in this light maybe the underlying theory of supergravity has a similar simple structure

So I am going to lay out a physical prescription here for how I think this is going to work. To start we consider an N dimensional space that includes spacetime, so N > 4. We then assume that a curl-like condition determines the fields on a vector U^a for U^a~=~(U^\mu,U^j) for j > 4 ... N. This gives a Lagrangian

<br /> S~=~\int d^Nx\sqrt{g}\Big(-\frac{1}{4}(\nabla_aU_b~-~\nabla_bU_a)(\nabla^aU^b~-~\nabla^bU^a)~-~\lambda(U_aU^a~-~U^2)~+~{\cal L}_{int}\Big)<br />

where \lambda is a Lagrange multiplier constraining the length of the N-vector.This lattice can be of various forms, in particular for a Lie group with a lattice representation. The E_8 lattice is a discrete subgroup \Lambda_8 of R^8 of full rank that spans R^8. This lattice is given explicitly by a discrete set of points in R^8 such that the coordinates are integers or half-integers, and the sum of the eight coordinates is an even integer. If small spheres are assigned to these points the lattice is a body centered cubic lattice (bcc), where the bcc in three dimensions is the crystalline lattice of silicon. Symbolically the lattice is,

<br /> \Lambda_8~=~\{x_i~\in~Z_8~\cup~(Z_8~+~1/2)_8:~\sum_ix_i~=~0~mod~2\} <br />

Clearly the sum of two lattice points is another lattice point.
Assign \phi_i as the field that connects gauge coefficients with the group{\cal G} those with {\cal G}&#039; at the i^{th} side and \psi_{i,i+1} as the field attaching {\cal G}&#039; at the i^{th} node to the {\cal G} at the i+1^{th} node. The S matrix is then defined as

<br /> S_{i,i+1}~=~g_s\langle~|\phi_i\psi_{i,i+1}|~\rangle.<br />

A local gauge transition on this matrix is then determined by the {\cal G}&#039; groups at the vertices of the edge link by g_i^{-1}S_{i,i+1}g_{i+1} and S_{i,i+1} is an m\times m matrix of bosons. These bosons are then "link variables" for the chain. The distinction between the two groups I discuss below. When the gauge coupling g_s becomes large there is a confinement process that defines a mass, which by necessity breaks any chiral symmetry. The renormalization cut offs for confinement are set by the two groups defined as \Lambda_n and \Lambda_m, where free fermions and their gauge bosons (e.g. quarks and gluons) are free from confinement for E~&gt;&gt;~\Lambda_n,~\Lambda_m. Under this situation, where the strength of the \cal G is small, the differential of the scattering matrix in a nonlinear sigma model is,

<br /> D_\mu S_{i,i+1}~=~\partial_\mu S_{i,i+1}~-~igA_{\mu i}S_{i,i+1}~+~igS_{i,i+1}A_{\mu i+1},<br />

where the effective Lagrangian for the field theory is

<br /> {\cal L}_{eff}~=~-\frac{1}{2g^2}\sum_i F_{ab i}{F^{ab}}_i~+~g^2\sum_i Tr|{\cal D}_\mu S_{i,i+1}|^2.<br />

This is the Lagrangian for a N - 4 dimensional {\cal G}&#039; theory, where the additional dimension has been placed on the N-polygon. The last term in the Lagrangian determines a mass Lagrangian of the form

<br /> {\cal L}_{mass}~\sim~g_s^2\sum_i(A_i~-~A_{i+1})^2.<br />

The second term in the effective Lagrangian couples the vector U^a to the YM field and so we write {\cal L}_{eff} as

<br /> {\cal L}_{eff}~=~-\frac{1}{4}\sum_i F_{ab i}{F^{ab}}_i~+~\frac{1}{2m^2}U^aU^b g^{cd}F_{ab}F_{bd}<br />

The equations of motion are

<br /> \nabla_aF^{ab}~=~\frac{1}{m^2}(U_cU^b\nabla_aF^{ca}~-~U_cU^a\nabla_aF^{cb}),<br />

which when decomposed into spacetime parts \mu~=~\{1,~\dots,~4\} and i > 4 are

<br /> \partial_\mu F^{\mu i}~=~0,<br />
<br /> \partial_\mu F^{\mu\nu}~=~-(1~+~\frac{U^2}{m^2})\partial_iF^{i\nu}<br />

We chose the gauge A_i~=~0 and the DEs of motion then indicate that k_\mu k^{\mu}~=~(1~+~(U/m)^2)k_ik^i. If we put in a mass term in the Lagrangian, such as the one implied above and equate M^2~=~k_\mu k^\mu we then have

<br /> M^2~=~m_0^2~+~(1~+~(U/m)^2)(n^2\hbar/R)^2,<br />

where the compactified dimension on i are expressed according to the compactified radius and the winding number n. In this way the mass of the gauge particle (analogous to a massive phonon) is renormalized in much the same way massive particles have renormalized masses in a Brillouin zones. This is one way to explicitely construct towers of masses.

If you look at Chapter 24 in Conway & Sloane this discusses the twenty three constructions of the Leech lattice. There are 23 Niemeier construction of the Leech Lattice. For a flat 24-dimensional space one choice works well enough. However, in general this lattice may be deformed or defined on a curved manifold. Therefore, without belaboring the point too much, there will by homology considerations be "defects" in any tesselation of the 24-dimensional manifold. The particular vectors, say the U^a above will have a particular gluing, but in general an element might be connected to another with a different gluing. This is the meaning of the different groups {\cal G} and {\cal G}&#039; for distinct "glue codes" in the A-D-E classification.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
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  • #281
While it has always been my argument that many aspect of the lessons we learn out of condensed matter physics can be fundamental and applicable to a wide range of physics field, I also think that it needs to be applied or referred to accurately.

Lawrence B. Crowell said:
The symmetry of the lattice determines the spectra of phonons in much the same way that a symmetry group in particle physics determines the structure or states of elementary particles. The particle states are given by eigenstates of Bloch waves on a lattice, which in lattice QCD are analogously seen in Mantin periodic Lagrangians.

This is not quite correct. While the symmetry of the crystal structure can certainly be a factor in determining the phonon spectrum, it isn't the the only one, and it isn't uniquely determined by it. The form factor of the crystal structure is also one crucial aspect. That's why you can have 2 bcc lattices with the same lattice atoms, but you can easily have different basis at each of the lattice points and thus, different form factors, which in turn changes the phonon spectrum.

If small spheres are assigned to these points the lattice is a body centered cubic lattice (bcc), where the bcc in three dimensions is the crystalline lattice of silicon.

I'm sure this isn't a crucial mistake. , Still, since you are mentioning the "crystal structure" rather than the reciprocal lattice structure, silicon is an FCC diamond crystal, not bcc.

In this way the mass of the gauge particle (analogous to a massive phonon) is renormalized in much the same way massive particles have renormalized masses in a Brillouin zones.

A "massive phonon" is a rather strange term. In the heavy fermion system, there are no "massive phonons". Rather, the renormalization is due to several many-body interactions, possibly even the spin-fluctuation interactions. This is certainly confirmed by the fact that there are many systems that share the same crystal structure as the heavy fermion system. Yet, those other systems do not have the same heavy fermions. So if what you mentioned earlier that the phonon spectrum is only dependent on the crystal lattice, this observation would be inconsistent to that claim.

Zz.
 
  • #282
ZapperZ said:
This is not quite correct. While the symmetry of the crystal structure can certainly be a factor in determining the phonon spectrum, it isn't the the only one, and it isn't uniquely determined by it.

I'm sure this isn't a crucial mistake. , Still, since you are mentioning the "crystal structure" rather than the reciprocal lattice structure, silicon is an FCC diamond crystal, not bcc.


A "massive phonon" is a rather strange term. In the heavy fermion system, there are no "massive phonons". Rather, the renormalization is due to several many-body interactions, possibly even the spin-fluctuation interactions. This is certainly confirmed by the fact that there are many systems that share the same crystal structure as the heavy fermion system. Yet, those other systems do not have the same heavy fermions. So if what you mentioned earlier that the phonon spectrum is only dependent on the crystal lattice, this observation would be inconsistent to that claim.

Zz.

The role of fermions complicates this picture, and this is something which of course is of interest to me. Solid state physics has a lot of dependencies with the electronic structure of the atoms in a lattice. Here the analogue is "weak," for the Fermionic sector is not determined in the same manner. Also I calculated a "k" for a YM field with a renormalized mass, which implicitely is a reciprocal lattice calculation. The idea here is motivated by solid state physics, but is not identical to it.

The massive phonon comparison is made since this calculation is for the mass of a QCD-like or gluon-like particle. How the fermion sector comes into play is a "work in progress." So what I presented was the basic core idea, and that interaction Lagrangian I left untouched is an area to explore. Heavy fermionic systems, such as the breakdown of Landau electron liquids, is something which I think has analogues with the vacuum structure of the universe. The quantum critical point I suspect is a point where we identify the equation of state for the vacuum with w = -1. In the toy calculation I did I simply demonstrated a way of arriving at a "tower" of masses, here given by an unspecified YM field.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #283
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
The role of fermions complicates this picture, and this is something which of course is of interest to me. Solid state physics has a lot of dependencies with the electronic structure of the atoms in a lattice. Here the analogue is "weak," for the Fermionic sector is not determined in the same manner. Also I calculated a "k" for a YM field with a renormalized mass, which implicitely is a reciprocal lattice calculation. The idea here is motivated by solid state physics, but is not identical to it.

The massive phonon comparison is made since this calculation is for the mass of a QCD-like or gluon-like particle. How the fermion sector comes into play is a "work in progress." So what I presented was the basic core idea, and that interaction Lagrangian I left untouched is an area to explore. Heavy fermionic systems, such as the breakdown of Landau electron liquids, is something which I think has analogues with the vacuum structure of the universe. The quantum critical point I suspect is a point where we identify the equation of state for the vacuum with w = -1. In the toy calculation I did I simply demonstrated a way of arriving at a "tower" of masses, here given by an unspecified YM field.

Lawrence B. Crowell

I'm not arguing about the "motivation, but not identical" part. I'm arguing that when you invoke principles from solid state physics, you are using them in error, or citing "non-existent" concept, such as "massive phonons". The existence of a "renomalized" or "effective" mass in condensed matter can be due to a number of factors. In fact, at T close to zero, there are no phonon-active effects, yet you still have mass renormalization. So this clearly indicates that this isn't a "phonon" effect, or at the very least, it isn't a major contributor to the mass.

You can do whatever you like, but it would be in error to make an analogy to something that doesn't exist.

Zz.
 
  • #284
ZapperZ said:
I'm not arguing about the "motivation, but not identical" part. I'm arguing that when you invoke principles from solid state physics, you are using them in error, or citing "non-existent" concept, such as "massive phonons".
Zz.

Ok fair enough. Clearly there are no massive phonons in Ashcroft & Mermin solid state physics. Yet one could do a "what if" and imagine a massive phonons, or in my case phonons which come about from a compactification.

Half of physical ideas come from "what if."

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #285
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
Ok fair enough. Clearly there are no massive phonons in Ashcroft & Mermin solid state physics. Yet one could do a "what if" and imagine a massive phonons, or in my case phonons which come about from a compactification.

Half of physical ideas come from "what if."

Lawrence B. Crowell

Then you shouldn't cite from "solid state physics" when it doesn't come from solid state physics. Secondly, this becomes be highly speculative, which, as you are aware of, belongs in the IR forum, even for something in this sub-forum.

Zz.
 
  • #286
ZapperZ said:
Secondly, this becomes be highly speculative, which, as you are aware of, belongs in the IR forum...

ZapperZ, there are clearly many of us working on similar ideas for QG, so banning it from this forum would be roughly the same as banning strings or LQG, which is to say, just ridiculous. Moreover, the mass matrices do in fact offer some evidence that these speculations are connected in some way with a real physical theory, rather than airy fairy wiffle waffle.
 
  • #287
Kea said:
ZapperZ, there are clearly many of us working on similar ideas for QG, so banning it from this forum would be roughly the same as banning strings or LQG, which is to say, just ridiculous. Moreover, the mass matrices do in fact offer some evidence that these speculations are connected in some way with a real physical theory, rather than airy fairy wiffle waffle.

First of all, you are welcome to follow whatever development you want out of LQG. However, if ALL LQG community is doing is making analogy based on non-existent phenomena out of condensed matter physics, then I'd say the community needs to justify what they are doing using OTHER stuff. I would be shocked if they are using made-up principles as justification to base their analogies on. If you don't think there's anything wrong with this, then I'd say you have other bigger problems to deal with than me.

Secondly, if such "workings" are based on "established" line of research, then these "what if's" and are not "banned". The 'what if's" that I've referred to is when you are making such speculation based on an erroneous understanding of solid state physics or non-existent theory. This strategy makes no sense, even in LQG! I find it very hard to believe someone would do that with a straight face.

Remember what my original objection was. It was VERY specific!

I would also add that we have given discussions in this particular forum a lot of latitude that we would not allow in the other physics sub-forum. I'm fully aware of the nature of the subject matter in the fields being covered here and that's why certain requirement that are made in other physics areas are not strictly demanded in here. However, at some point, these freedom should not be abused or participants should not think that any wild speculation is allowed. Some degree of respect to our Guidelines should factor in in these posts.

Zz.
 
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  • #288
I am not put off by your objection, but I would have thought that my hypothesis that Neimeier "deep hole" lattice constructions as a way of looking at tesselated 24-dim spaces would have gotten maybe more criticism than this. The idea of a massive phonon is not initially that different than the Proca equations for a massive photon. Agreed these things don't exist in condensed matter states, but then again for these things we might "deform" the analogue. Zz just appears not to like this "deformation."

The standard model is a keyhole with which to peek into questions on cosmology and quantum gravity. Recent experimental finds at RHIC of gauge-balls or fireballs of quark-gluon plasmas with dual structures to black hole interiors suggests this is the case. Also the E_8 construction of elementary particles, where this has a lattice or sphere packing construction suggests on a theoretical level that we might be touching on some fundemantal issues of quantum gravity and cosmology.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #289
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
I am not put off by your objection, but I would have thought that my hypothesis that Neimeier "deep hole" lattice constructions as a way of looking at tesselated 24-dim spaces would have gotten maybe more criticism than this. The idea of a massive phonon is not initially that different than the Proca equations for a massive photon. Agreed these things don't exist in condensed matter states, but then again for these things we might "deform" the analogue. Zz just appears not to like this "deformation."

I'm not sure what you read out of the things that I've typed, but I have no issues with your "deformation". I only had issues when you invoke something that doesn't exist.

There are invalid analogies, and then there are valid analogies. When Peter Higgs invoked Nambu's analysis of how elementary particles can acquire mass using something analogous that he lnoticed out of the energy gap in a superconductor, that's a valid analogy. Why? Because they were citing something that's well-tested, verified, AND existed!

Again, in case this point was missed, as someone who was trained as a condensed matter physicist, I am THRILLED if other fields invoke stuff from what we work on. I have continued to trumpet some of the principles that came out of condensed matter physics (such as broken symmetries) that are now standard formulation in other areas of physics. However, these things should be done accurately. Making an analogy to something that doesn't exist simply makes no sense, at least to me. You are leaving yourself open for criticism (not to mention, ridicule), especially if you intend to have such ideas published. It is difficult enough when you have condensed matter Nobel Laureates such as Phil Anderson and Bob Laughlin questioning the worthiness of this area of study. I would think that the last thing you want to do is give them extra ammunitions by making faulty analogy or application of the field of study that they specialize in.

Zz.
 
  • #290
ZapperZ said:
I would be shocked if they are using made-up principles as justification to base their analogies on.

Clearly, you have completely misunderstood my position. You might want to read up a bit on what we are talking about before you start ranting on about its flaws. I am not a proponent of strings or LQG. In my opinion, these approaches lack motivating principles. So somebody makes a bad analogy...big deal! Surely it is more important to try and understand what they are saying.
 
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  • #291
Kea said:
Clearly, you have completely misunderstood my position. You might want to read up a bit on what we are talking about before you start ranting on about its flaws. I am not a proponent of strings or LQG. In my opinion, these approaches lack motivating principles.

.. and I think you have misunderstood my position even after I explained it a few times.

You will notice that I had issues with ONE particular post. I didn't come in here pointing flaws about what was being discussed here. However, you seem to think that I was trying to "ban" a whole slew of discussion. It was in reference to this claim of yours that I was asking for the rationality in not having any discomfort when an analogy was made to non-existent concepts.

How that somehow translates to my wanting to 'ban' the discussion, or how I was pointing out wholesale flaws to what was being discussed in this thread, that I haven't a clue.

Zz.
 
  • #292
ZapperZ said:
How that somehow translates to my wanting to 'ban' the discussion, or how I was pointing out wholesale flaws to what was being discussed in this thread, that I haven't a clue.

All right, my mistake. I was put off by the length of your input. If that's all you're saying, I agree, and the point could be made in one sentence.
 
  • #293
Kea said:
All right, my mistake. I was put off by the length of your input. If that's all you're saying, I agree, and the point could be made in one sentence.

My mistake. I thought I owe people an explanation for my point of view rather than simply saying "because I said so".

Zz.
 
  • #294
Carl: how are you going right now? Hope you're recovering.

It seems I have found 20 E8 roots which are capable of configuring all other three generations in a preon like style. I use 8 roots with "1/2" assignments and 12 with "1" assignments. All particles have a maximum of three preons, allthough I still have to check many of them one by one. This scheme facilitates that all quantum numbers for all the three generations turn out right. Does this make sense as far as you know?

NB: it looks like we have two parellel discussions in this thread.

Jan
 
  • #295
Berlin said:
Does this make sense as far as you know?

Suppose you got everything right. Do these elements form a group which are homeomorphic to those of the Standard Model?
 
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  • #296
Berlin said:
It seems I have found 20 E8 roots which are capable of configuring all other three generations in a preon like style. I use 8 roots with "1/2" assignments and 12 with "1" assignments. All particles have a maximum of three preons, allthough I still have to check many of them one by one.

I can hardly wait to see! If someone made me place bets, I would say 6 preons for each fermions, but they will arrive in pairs that are so tightly related that one could also call them 3 preons each. I should write up something on why this is the case, the short descrpition is that it makes it possible for weak hypercharge and weak isospin to be rotated by 45 degrees. On the bosons, I really don't know what to guess, maybe 4 preons each? 6? Surprise me, I can hardly wait.

My earlier comments on how to get preons into E8 through MUBs did turn out to be narcotics induced, or possibly just wrong, at least for the larger dimension Hilbert spaces. For dimension > 2 and 3, one needs to explore more general bases than those one would be restricted to by the MUB principle. I suppose you figured this out quickly.

For fitting E8, what I'd like to see would be quantum numbers for E8 that are not in the "eight 1/2s or 2 1s" form, which is very beautiful and symmetric, but instead quantum numbers with cubed roots of one. Then I think a preon structure for the generations would be more noticeable.

On the same topic, I typed up a "short" description of how Koide's formula comes from a preon model, since the stuff was in bits and pieces elsewhere:
http://carlbrannen.wordpress.com/2008/02/13/koide-formulas-and-qubit-qutrit-mubs/

Berlin said:
Carl: how are you going right now? Hope you're recovering.

Jan, I'm sufficiently recovered that I've been rough-housing with the guys again. The doctors are all very very good. And the nurses are all beautiful. And very very good. The food was also excellent, but all in all, I'm glad to be out.
 
  • #297
Solid state physics analogue

At the risk of creating a greater firestorm I will attempt to make the comparison with solid state physics and lattice based field theory more complete. I will work with the d_2~=~so(4) and d_2~=~so(3,1) electroweak and gravitational parts. The lattice will be the 24-cell or the \{3,~4,~3\} polytope. The full E_8 theory of Lisi could be extended accordingly. The two d_2's combine into a graviweak d_4 with the combination of the 4 Higgs \phi with the 4 vectors of gravitation into the 16 two-vectors e\phi with a Clifford basis \Gamma_a~\in~Cl(7,~1)

<br /> \omega_{ew}~=~\frac{1}{2}\omega^{ab}_{ew}\Gamma_{ab},~e~=~e^a\Gamma_a,~\phi~=~\phi^a\Gamma_a,<br />

for the electroweak, Higgs and gravitational frame connections respectively. The net graviweak connection is then

<br /> A~=~\frac{1}{2}\omega~+~\frac{1}{4}e\phi~+~\omega_{ew}.<br />

This define a curvature F~=~dA~+~(1/2)[A,~A]. In the BF theory the Lagrangian is {\cal L}~=~B\cdot F.

The extension to solid state physics is seen if the hamiltonian is written in the compact form

<br /> H~=~AA~\rightarrow~\alpha\sigma\cdot k,<br />

for \sigma an effective spin from the Grassmannian B-form, and \alpha a constant. The wave function for this Hamiltonian \psi~=~|\psi|e^{i\Phi} and Green's function G(k,~\omega)~=~1/(k~-~k_F~-~i\omega)e^{i\Phi}, where \omega is a frequency determined by a dispersion relationship. This Green's function is for k-vectors pointing radially away from a Fermi surface, or a heghog condition. The condition on the k_F may be determined by the Higgs vev as seen in equation 3.8 of Garrett Lisi's paper, or by an orbifold compactification in a way similar to what I illustrated in post # 72.

The idea is then that QFT has a fermionic and bosonic component with E~\sim~ck^4, which for k~=~1/L_p determines a large ZPE term. Yet if for E~=~(N_B~-~N_F)ck^4 the cosmological problem can be worked on in this format. There may be a tower of mass states which appropriately cancel at all scales so that the cosmological constant is not so horridly large.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
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  • #298
Aside

The mathematician Kostant has been talking to Baez and others about Lisi's paper.

http://web.mit.edu/mikihavl/www/LG/abstracts07/kostant.pdf
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #299
Kea said:
The mathematician Kostant has been talking to Baez and others about Lisi's paper.

How do you know he's talking to them? Any source? That pdf just says he is talking about Lisi's paper.
 
  • #300
Whoa, that's great. Bertram Kostant is one of the world's greatest experts on Lie groups, and specifically the structure of E8. It was a conversation between him and John Baez that led John to make the post on E8 that I read and first realized the implications for the unification I was attempting:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/week90.html

I'd be very curious to hear what he has to say during that MIT talk -- does anyone know if these things are available online? It doesn't appear so.
 

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