An Exceptionally Technical Discussion of AESToE

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  • #301
Perhaps you can go - it looks like it's at UC San Diego this Sunday
http://www.math.ucsd.edu/announcements/seminars/
 
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  • #302
Ha!

That's highly amusing. He'll be talking about this at the same place where I learned differential geometry.

I'm not going to be able to make it though, as I'm up by Lake Tahoe right now.
 
  • #303
I guess I have to ask again... Why just finding a suitable combination of the E(8) roots in a preon fashion suficient to reproduce the standard model group? I don't see the reason in that.
 
  • #304
According to various web pages
Kostant gave a talk with the same title
"On some mathematical of the background to Garrett Lisi's " E(8) Theory of Everything"
and the same abstract
"A physicist , Garrett Lisi, has published a highly controversal, but fascinating, paper purporting to go beyond the standard model in that it unifies all 4 forces of nature by using as gauge group the exceptional Lie group E(8). My talk, strictly mathematical, will be about an elabloration of the mathematics of E(8) which Lisi relies on to construct his theory."

at UC Riverside (John Baez's institution) on 12 February 2008,
and
as Kea said is to give a talk on the same title/abstract at MIT on 5 March 2008
and
as FredA2 said is to give a talk on the same title/abstract at UCSD on 17 February 2008.

However, I have yet to see a paper or set of slides or any other record of details of what Kostant may be saying.

Tony Smith
 
  • #305
MTd2 said:
I guess I have to ask again... Why just finding a suitable combination of the E(8) roots in a preon fashion suficient to reproduce the standard model group? I don't see the reason in that.

I down loaded your pdf file on preon states. It appears incomplete as yet.

Correct me if I am wrong, for I don't know that much about preons, but these are putative subparticle states of quarks and leptons as I understand. There is another class of such theories which posit particle states called rishons which are sub-quarks and sub-lepton states.

The problem that seems to exist with these ideas is that the binding energy for such particle states is going to be inordinately large. For instance with the electron in the H-atom the binding energy is -13.7 ev, and for nucleons in a nucleus binding energy is in the 10 Mev range. For quarks in a hadron "bag" the binding energy has a magnitude comparable to the masses of the quarks. If one assumes that quarks and leptons are composed of further particles this would seem to give considerable difficulty in understanding such bound states --- in particular with renormalization issues.

Also with the electron very sensitive measurements have been performed on the Lande' g-factor, where of course corrections from g = 2 are predicted by QED. There continues to be a physics industry to measure this to ever higher orders and people compute higher order Feynman diagrams. I think the effort is up to O(\alpha^{10}) or so. So far things, as I understand them, indicates the electron as is point-like with no "warts" or substructure detected.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #306
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
I down loaded your pdf file on preon states. It appears incomplete as yet.

I didn't upload any file... I am still studying the underlying stuff so that I can come up with something. I am reading this thread and getting tips on what I must study.
 
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  • #307
Well, anyway, I just want to know about E(8) 4-manifolds. There is still a road ahead to understand it. It was the 1st example of a non triangulable manifold. It's interesting because it looks like a totaly empty space, from the point of view of an observer. I am not sure, since I didnt study it, but that means you have potentials, but no way to measure them. You don't have how to define stoke or gauss law, i think, since you wouldn't have homology or cohomology groups, so you can't measure any kind of flux. So, maybe you can't make an experiment or observation. Maybe no interection. That manifold would be like a virtual reality space, or a dead speace, or a white blank space.
 
  • #308
MTd2 said:
I didn't upload any file... I am still studying the underlying stuff so that I can come up with something. I am reading this thread and getting tips on what I must study.

Sorry, I think the file was by "Berlin."

L. C.
 
  • #309
Wondering what had been said in arXiv papers about Garrett's paper 0711.0770, I did a citebase search and found 4 papers citing Garrett's paper:

1 - 0711.3248 [hep-th] by Tibra Ali and Gerald B. Cleaver of Baylor University, in which they said
"... In passing we note that the decomposition of the ‘visible’ E8 in terms of F4 and G2, which naturally comes out of HF manifolds, is reminiscent of the group-structure of the unification scenario recently proposed by Lisi ...".

2 - 0712.0946 [hep-th] by A. Morzov of ITEP, in which he said
"... higher derivative terms are indeed present in most approaches, from
QFT formulations of string and M-theory to pure QFT models like asymptotically safe gravity or (the quantum version of) the recent E8 unification model [Garrett's paper]...".

3 - 0712.0977 [hep-th] by Lee Smolin of the Perimeter Institute, in which he said
"... We study a unification of gravity with Yang-Mills fields based on a simple exten-
sion of the Plebanski action to a Lie group G which contains the local lorentz group.
... This may be applied to Lisi’s proposal of an E8 unified theory, giving a fully E8 invariant action.
The extended form of the Plebanski action suggests a new class of spin foam
models. ...
Lisi’s proposal breaks the gauge invariance ... by a strategy of incorporate fermions by means a BRST extension of the connection. ... I propose an alternative way to incorporate the fermions, which would not break the gauge symmetry. ...
There are also open issues regarding spin and statistics; these may be addressed by generalized or topological spin-statistics theorems. ...".

4 - 0712.2976 [hep-th] by Massimo Bianchi and Sergio Ferrara of the CERN Physics Theory Unit, in which they said
"... the group E8(−24) ... is the exceptional group used in ...[Garrett's paper]... in a (hopeless) attempt to unify gravity with the Standard Model. ...".

Papers 1 and 2 just mention Garrett's model in passing, without evaluating it, which is in my opinion reasonable.

Paper 3 by Smolin goes into some detail about how Garrett's model might be a basis for useful physics, and also seems to me to be reasonable.

Paper 4 by Bianchi and Ferrara of CERN would be like 1 and 2 except for the gratuitous and unsupported word "hopeless".
If their paper is to be considered to be a serious physics paper (it was allowed on hep-th in the Cornell arXiv), then it seems to me that if they allege that something (such as Garrett's paper) is "hopeless" then they should give a detailed physics argument that Garrett (or anyone else) could rebut in detail.
In my opinion what they did was disgraceful,
and they should either withdraw the "hopeless" word and apologize
or put up a paper that supports their allegation of hopelessness in detail so that it can be rebutted.

Tony Smith
 
  • #310
I have hope.
in other words:
yes we can.
 
  • #311
Tony Smith said:
3 - 0712.0977 [hep-th] by Lee Smolin of the Perimeter Institute, in which he said
"... We study a unification of gravity with Yang-Mills fields based on a simple exten-
sion of the Plebanski action to a Lie group G which contains the local lorentz group.
... This may be applied to Lisi’s proposal of an E8 unified theory, giving a fully E8 invariant action.
The extended form of the Plebanski action suggests a new class of spin foam
models. ...
Lisi’s proposal breaks the gauge invariance ... by a strategy of incorporate fermions by means a BRST extension of the connection. ... I propose an alternative way to incorporate the fermions, which would not break the gauge symmetry. ...
There are also open issues regarding spin and statistics; these may be addressed by generalized or topological spin-statistics theorems. ...".

Tony Smith

Smolin's action, Plebanski's action, in equation 1 ( 0712.0977 [hep-th] ) is formally similar to equation 3.7 in Garrett's paper, or the gravitational action further down from 3.7. The gauge fields in the theory come from G/SO(4), where the Euclideanized gravity has been "moded out." From the nature of the action employed this theory should be similar to the Exceptional E_8 simplicity.

Smolin's idea of BRST quantization, presumably on supergenerators, I agree with in principle. It is best to have Fermion in the theory by topological means, eg Q^2~=~{\bar Q}^2=~0 and states \psi~=~{\bar Q}\chi. However, SUSY is broken and we have to contend with the issue of the vev. This is in part an interest in my "trial balloon" with a tower of masses for particles in a solid state physics-like model, but where even with broken SUSY we have a small vev.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #312
Tony Smith said:
Wondering what had been said in arXiv papers about Garrett's paper 0711.0770, I did a citebase search and found 4 papers citing Garrett's paper:

Have you talked to anyone at Georgia Tech about Garrett's paper or your paper based on Garrett's paper?
 
  • #313
John G asked "... Have you talked to anyone at Georgia Tech about Garrett's paper or your paper based on Garrett's paper? ...".

Yes. Back in January 2008 I sent an email to David Finkelstein, who is physics professor emeritus at Georgia Tech, saying in part

"... when Garrett Lisi's E8 model at http://arxiv.org/abs/0711.0770
came out in November 2007 you [David] were quoted by the London Telegraph as saying "... Some incredibly beautiful stuff falls out of Lisi's theory ... This must be more than coincidence and he really is touching on something profound. ...".
Since then,
I have been working on a formulation of my [Tony's] physics model in terms of E8 ...".

Pursuant to that, we had lunch. My understanding of the substance of what David Finkelstein said is:
1 - David had heard Garrett talk in Iceland around August 2007 and was favorably impressed at that time;
2 - David regretted giving the quoted comments to the reporter;
3 - David now (at the time of lunch last month) was not favorably impressed with Garrett's E8 model;
4 - David now was skeptical about anything being a TOE;
5 - For physics model-building, David said that he preferred SO(16) to E8.

I mentioned to David that E8 = adjoint of SO(16) + half-spinor of SO(16)
and David seemed interested in that point, and I gave David a paper copy of my E8 paper at
http://tony5m17h.net/GLE8Cl8TSxtnd.pdf
which contains some discussion about that point.

I have not heard from David since the day we ate lunch, 23 January 2008.

I don't know of anyone else at Georgia Tech who might have any serious interest in Garrett's E8 work or my work.

Tony Smith
 
  • #314
I just checked the web and found that the "around August 2007" Iceland conference at which David Finkelstein heard Garrett Lisi was according to Garrett's CV web page at
http://sifter.org/~aglisi/Physics/CV.html

"... FQXi 2007 Inaugural Conference, 5/21-5/26/2007, Reykjavik, Iceland.
[Garrett's] Contributed talk: "The Universe as a Pretty Shape" ...".

Tony Smith
 
  • #315
Tony Smith said:
According to various web pages
Kostant gave a talk with the same title
"On some mathematical of the background to Garrett Lisi's " E(8) Theory of Everything"
and the same abstract
"A physicist , Garrett Lisi, has published a highly controversal, but fascinating, paper purporting to go beyond the standard model in that it unifies all 4 forces of nature by using as gauge group the exceptional Lie group E(8). My talk, strictly mathematical, will be about an elabloration of the mathematics of E(8) which Lisi relies on to construct his theory."

at UC Riverside (John Baez's institution) on 12 February 2008,
and
as Kea said is to give a talk on the same title/abstract at MIT on 5 March 2008
and
as FredA2 said is to give a talk on the same title/abstract at UCSD on 17 February 2008.

However, I have yet to see a paper or set of slides or any other record of details of what Kostant may be saying.

Tony Smith


If anyone finds anymore information about what his talk included and any reactions to it, id be very intrigued to hear it, as I'm sure Garret is.
 
  • #316
I would be intrigued to hear that talk, too.

I would be even more intrigued if someone could write a book about E8 mathematics!

Why is that there is so much talk about the exceptional groups, but so little literature about them? Almost any Lie groups/ lie algebra book neglects them.

Highly frustrating.
 
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  • #317
Tony Smith said:
I mentioned to David that E8 = adjoint of SO(16) + half-spinor of SO(16)
and David seemed interested in that point, and I gave David a paper copy of my E8 paper at
http://tony5m17h.net/GLE8Cl8TSxtnd.pdf
which contains some discussion about that point.

Tony Smith


Your paper here raises some issues I have been trying to make here. For N-SUSY we have 2N operators a_i^\dagger for a total of 2^{2N} states. For N = 8 supersymmetry this gives the 256 states of the Clifford valued vacuum states |\Omega_{-2}\rangle of bivector fields, or helicity states

<br /> -2,~-\frac{3}{2},~-1,~-\frac{1}{2},~0,~\frac{1}{2},~1,~\frac{3}{2},~2<br />

with the graded multiplicities

[<br /> Cl(8)~=~1,~8,~28,~56,~70,~56,~28,~8,~1<br />

The 1 + 3 + 3 + 1 corresponding to 6 0-helicity and 2 2-helicity states. The 6 0-helcity states are useful for working on conformal gravity. SU(4)~\sim~spin(6)~\subset~spin(8), and spin(8) with a root system given by the \{3,~4,~3\}. The additional 4 dimensions are for the cartan centralizer of spin(8). The associated icocian of 120 quaternions, the left (or right) colored parts of Cl(8) is dual to another set of 120 quaternions (icosian) as the right (or left side) We may then "dualize" the elements of the two 24-cells or icosians by considering each elements as

<br /> y^a~=~x^a~+~i\theta\sigma^a{\bar\theta}<br />

for x^a and i\theta\sigma^a{\bar\theta} dual colored elements of the opposite sides of the 0-helicity states. This vector x^a is a discrete set of rigid vectors on the 24-cell, and the graded part on a dual 24-cell. These will then be eigenvectors of a superfield. This will give superpairs for 120 of the 240 E_8 elements, and to obtain the superpairs of the remaining elements of E_8 according to the Lisi representation may then require a second E_8 with what might be called a "cross dualization" of particles and supersymmetric partners. By cross dualizing I mean that if on one E_8 we have the colored elements on left side of 3 + 3 in the 0-helicity states as particles and the right hand side as SUSY partners, we then consider the right colored states as particles and the left as the SUSY pairs. In this way a complete representation of E_8\times E_8~\sim~SO(32) theory can be arrived at, and from a different trajectory than string theory.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #318
Lawrence B. Crowell said "... the Lisi representation may then require a second E_8 with what might be called a "cross dualization" of particles and supersymmetric partners ...".

What kind of correspondence is there between "particles and supersymmetric partners"?

In my opinion, a 1-1 correspondence between fermions and gauge bosons is not physically realistic (i.e., no such superpartner has ever been seen),
so
if the function of the second E8 is make such a 1-1 correspondence then it is not consistent with what I do
and
it does not seem to me to be what Garrett is doing.

In the single-E8 models such as how I understand Garrett's to be,
the structure of E8 gives direct correspondences (although NOT naive 1-1)
between the gauge bosons of the two copies of D4 in the E8
and
the fermions of the 128-dim half-spinor of Spin(16) in the E8.

Given a Lagrangian with both gauge boson and fermion terms,
those E8 correspondences (in my view of Garrett's model, and in my model) show that the overall gauge boson and fermion terms cancel,
which gives the useful result of conventional 1-1 supersymmetry cancellation
without the unobserved (and in my opinion unrealistic) squarks, sleptons, winos, etc of conventional 1-1 supersymmetry.

So, in short, I don't see that a second E8 for conventional 1-1 supersymmetry is needed.

Tony Smith
 
  • #319
Tony Smith said:
Given a Lagrangian with both gauge boson and fermion terms,
those E8 correspondences (in my view of Garrett's model, and in my model) show that the overall gauge boson and fermion terms cancel,
which gives the useful result of conventional 1-1 supersymmetry cancellation
without the unobserved (and in my opinion unrealistic) squarks, sleptons, winos, etc of conventional 1-1 supersymmetry.

So, in short, I don't see that a second E8 for conventional 1-1 supersymmetry is needed.

Tony Smith

Of course this is not supersymmetry. A fermion and bosonic field (F, B) on the same frame, written cryptically as Z = B + g*F, for g a Grassmannian, does not make supersymmetry, though the overall theory is graded. So you can of course abandon SUSY completely. Until the LHC comes on line we are operating largely in the dark. Five to ten years from now we may have a far better idea about these things --- an experiment can often be worth more than a thousand theories.

I too think that squarks, sneutrionos and the rest do not manifest themselves. Yet I think these fields are canceled out in quantum gravity. Gravitation, contrary to what is often thought, involves all of the spin fields. The spin = 2 field comes from the quantization of the pp-wave, or linearized type N Petrov solutions, which have two polarization directions or helicity = 2. These solutions can be extended to Robinson-Trautman type solutions and back in "days of yore" there was a lot of effort to build up black holes from Feynman diagrams of spin = 2 solutions. This lore has also lead to a lot of string ideology from Regge trajectories and the s = 2 state. But string theory does not get general relativity quite right, and is a bimetric theory that abuses the general covariance of GR. I think that the superpairs of fermion and gauge fields serve to cancel out spurious states in quantum gravity and are maybe why physical (as opposed to purely mathematical) classical spacetime does not permit some of these odd-ball solutions for wormholes, time machines, Krasnikov tubes and Alcubierre warp drives, and in general metric configurations g variables in the Hawking-Hartle wave functional \Psi[g] that have no classical analogue.

I have always found supersymmetry a compelling idea. Fields that commute in the (0, 1/2) and (1/2, 0) spinor representations of the Lorentz group are paired up with anticommuting fields. The two fields are related by a supermanifold y^a~=~x^a~+~\theta\sigma^a{\bar\theta} description which extends the Lorentz (Poincare) symmetries.

An example of what I was saying above about superpairs cancelling out "strange" spacetime solutions the Rarita-Schwinger field is an example. The field is represented by, or transforms according to, the

<br /> \Big(\frac{1}{2},~\frac{1}{2}\Big)\otimes\Big(\Big(0,~\frac{1}{2}\Big)\oplus\Big(\frac{1}{2},~0\Big)\Big)<br />

spinor representation of the Lorentz group. This may be graded with the graviton with a Grassmann field. The RS field suffers from some pathologies, in particular it has acausal or faster than light in a gauged setting. Now suppose this field cancels out solutions to the Einstein field equations that lead to acausality. So a spacetime which has closed timelike loops is then canceled out by the RS field. So for the graviton G in a SUSY pairing I will write suggestively as P = G + gR will then have eigenstates which do not include this sort of spurious spacetime.

The graviton is point-like, and in spacetime of four dimensions the Poincare dual is four dimensional spacetime itself. So the whole system of gravitons in the universe might be thought of as a superposition or coherent structure (similar to a superfluid) of gravitons, which is then a superposition of spacetimes in something similar to the Hawking-Hartle path integral. This will include all possible manifold configurations. This includes a class of topological manifolds called E_8 manifolds, which are four dimensional manifolds whose intersection form (Kahler form) is an E_8 lattice. These manifolds have no diffeomorphic structure, though they are homeomorphic. Hence a graviton which corresponds to a "strange" spacetime, such as one which is has no Cauchy data, is identified with these "fake" manifolds. This part is a work in progress, and involves work with the Riemann-Roch theorem. So at this time this part is very incomplete.

This then gives rise to the three E_8's: the single E_8, its SUSY dual and this additional E_8 for the class of 4-manifolds which are "E_8" and are canceled out by the SUSY pairs of the first E_8. This then leads to the \Lambda_{24}. The E_8 is defines the theta function

<br /> \theta_8~=~1~+~240\sum_{n=1}^\infty \delta(n)q^{2n}<br />

(\delta = divisor) where this is also the Eisenstein E_4. The Leech lattice being composed of three E_8s has a theta function cubic on \theta_8(q) as

<br /> \Theta_{24}(q)~=~\theta_8(q)^3~-~720 q^2\prod_{n=1}^\infty(1~-~q^{2n})^{24}<br />

So this is how I see the path into the Leech lattice, and the possible role for the three E_8's. I am trying to invoke physical ideas into this instead of just doing math or representation theory. If physics is ultimately up to the Leech lattice it might behoove us to have some physical reason for why embedded in that system there are effectively three E_8. I see this as Irrep on standard fields, SUSY and the spacetime correspondence of gravitons with 4-manifolds and an as yet unknown cancellation procedure.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #320
E_8 four manifolds

MTd2 said:
Well, anyway, I just want to know about E(8) 4-manifolds. There is still a road ahead to understand it. It was the 1st example of a non triangulable manifold. It's interesting because it looks like a totaly empty space, from the point of view of an observer. I am not sure, since I didnt study it, but that means you have potentials, but no way to measure them. You don't have how to define stoke or gauss law, i think, since you wouldn't have homology or cohomology groups, so you can't measure any kind of flux. So, maybe you can't make an experiment or observation. Maybe no interection. That manifold would be like a virtual reality space, or a dead speace, or a white blank space.

E_8 four manifolds are curious mathematical entities. They emerge from Donaldson's theorem on the dimension of a moduli space for the adjoint action of a bundle on a four manifold. There are on moduli singularities blowups of these points, where the evaluation of the Betti number is a subspace of the projective space. This is a cone in CP^n. The Kahler form for the topological charge is for a class of manifolds equivalent to an E_8 manifold, or where the topological charge is given by the Cartan center of the E_8. I'd recommend looking at Donaldson & Kronheimer "Geometry of four manifolds," Cambridge.

This stuff comes into play because path integrals are often related to the Polyakov path integral with the integration measure D[x]/Diffeo or if not diffeomorphisms then a gauge volume on the moduli. Yet how can you define a path integral of this sort if you don't have a "stable" method for "modding" out gauge freedoms? This is where my idea of cancellations comes in. I just wrote about how spin 3/2 fields might cancel out some achronal spacetime solutions. Similarly I think that since spin 1/2 is involved with gravity, such as in

T. Jacobson, J. D. Romano, Commun.Math.Phys. 155 (1993) 261-276

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/9207/9207006v1.pdf

and is associated with homotopy groups of the manifold, that the SUSY pairs with spin 1/2, eg higgsino, is canceled out by spacetimes with such topology. So the question is whether the "fake" four manifolds above, which are Euclidean instanton states, correspond to specific strange spacetimes in a way that can be canceled out this way.

Clearly time machines don't exist, and I suspect that nature has its "sanity checks" which prevent the energy conditions and topologies which permit these things, which are a favorite toy of science fiction writers.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #321
It seems my intuition is leading me on what I wanted. Although I didnt understand the first paragraph very well yet, I got the book. I am still building up my knowledge. But if anything, I would like that our spacetime emerged as kind energy optimal solution by breaking E(8) symmetry. But not breaking just in the beginning of time, but on the fly, constantly, as if it was a kind of background noise, but at the same time providing a bound. Spin should emerge from space-time structure. Otherwise, spin out of nowhere is just too artificial to me, and I don't find attractive to study. Lol, I am speaking like a crackpot. But, anyway, this is just my intuition.

Speaking of time machines, i don't mind closed timelike structures. They just should be small enough to not influence casuality. (crackpot again...). Have anyone thought that the exclusion principle comes from nature trying to hide closed time like structures, and that the sign of such curves is the 1/2 spin?

In that book, do they prove that manifold is not triangulable? ( I know this is silly, but given the evil place where i got the book, i couldn't read it yet).
 
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  • #322
MTd2 said:
Have anyone thought that the exclusion principle comes from nature trying to hide closed time like structures, and that the sign of such curves is the 1/2 spin?

In that book, do they prove that manifold is not triangulable?

Yes, E_8 four manifolds are not diffeomeorphic nor in general triangulable. This business touches on the Continuum hypothesis as well, which is the Cohen-Bernays demonstration of the Godel theorem and the continuum conjecture as consistent with Z-F set theory. You statement about the uncertainty princple as associated with a "hiding" of spacetime structure may not be too far off the mark. I think it is involved with a sort of coarse graining which happens with these cancellations, which in effect creates an uncertainty in gravitational self-energy.

Well there is in physics a most interesting and disturbing word in physics. That word is graviton. The idea automatically puts one in a domain of bimetric theories, which implicitely involve a coordinate dependent map between two metrics. Ugh! this is an insult on Einstein's legacy. String theory is bugger-all with this problem, which after all came more out of elementary particle physics --- not gravitation. LQG treats gravity in a more nobel manner, but as it becomes more particle-like spacetime physics starts to be run through the paper shredder.

Ultimately physics has two relationship systems for particles. One involves geometry, the other involves quanta. The geometry one involves first space, time and spacetime, and a system of symmetries on that spacetime. There is a theorem by Coleman and Mandula on this, which gets a bit of an upgrade to supersymmetry, which spells this out very nicely. Here the geometry is a measure system, a set of kinematics so to speak, which permits us to determine a relationship system between particles by forces and the transfer or communication of energy, information and the rest. The other relationship system is quantum. This is not a metric geometric system — two quantum states can be entangled across the whole universe as “strongly” as on an optic bench — well in principle. Quantum gravity is about merging these two relationship systems into one.

This is the problem with that infernal graviton. A quantum gravity which has this "gravity particle," no matter how quantized and dressed up to look good, is just going to have problems. Hawking-Hartle and the rest of that physics mafia in some ways are right, quantum gravity involves states over space or spacetime configuration variables in an ADM setting or ... . Of course LQG takes off from this. Yet that graviton must involve some description of not just a particle, but of a whole spacetime or cosmology, or a coherent system of spacetimes --- the set of all possible four manifolds! And this theory involves the E_8 lattice, isn't that remarkable!

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #323
Lawrence B. Crowell refers to "... a class of topological manifolds called E_8 manifolds, which are four dimensional manifolds whose intersection form ... is an E_8 lattice ...".

Garrett in his paper at 0711.0770 refers to "... an E8 principal bundle connection ... with "... a four dimensional base manifold ...".

What is the explicit correspondence, if any, between
the E8 intersection form of a 4-dimensional "E_8 manifold"
and
the E8 symmetry of an E8 principal bundle connection over a 4-dimensional base manifold
?

For an example (from the book Instantons and Four-Manifolds by Freed and Uhlenbeck (Springer-Verlag 1984),
consider 6-real-dimensional or 3-complex-dimensional CP3 with coordinates (z0,z1,z2,z3) and the 4-real-dimensional or 2-complex-dimensional Kummer surface within it defined by
z0^4 + z1^4 + z2^4 + z3^4 = 0.
It has intersection form represented by
-E8 (+) -E8 (+) 3 ( S2 x S2 )
where E8 is the Cartan matrix for the Lie algebra E8 and S2 is the 2-sphere.

I don't understand exactly how an E8 Cartan matrix in the Kummer surface intersection form would produce an E8 principal bundle symmetry group over the 4-real-dim Kummer surface as base manifold,
or
how it would explicitly correspond to the root vectors of the E8 Lie algebra of the E8 principal bundle symmetry group.

Tony Smith
 
  • #324
Tony Smith said:
I don't understand exactly how an E8 Cartan matrix in the Kummer surface intersection form would produce an E8 principal bundle symmetry group over the 4-real-dim Kummer surface as base manifold,
or
how it would explicitly correspond to the root vectors of the E8 Lie algebra of the E8 principal bundle symmetry group.

Tony Smith

This is of course a bit of an open question, and is something which I have been attempting to address. This leads into an issue of compactification, Calabi-Yau spaces and orbifolds. What I am about to write is a sketch of one possibility I am considering. This has some suggestive possibilities.
A Kummer surface is a specific case of a K3 surface (K-cubed Kummer, Kahler & Kodiara). The 2-surface given by z_0^4~+~z_1^4~+~z_2^4~+~z_3^4~=~0 is a two-dim C surface in CP^3 and is an exception to most K3 manifolds which are not embedded in a projective space, or defined by this sort of polynomial. K3 manifolds are diffeomorphic to each other, so one specific example translates to another.A general Kummer surface obeys a quartic equation of the sort

<br /> (x_0^2~+~x_1^2~+~x_2^2~+~mx_3^2)^2~+~\lambda abcd~=~0<br />

for the abcd functions of the x_i's. For the first and second pairs of these coordinates the real and imaginary parts of a complex variable then this is invariant under an abelian reparameterization z~\rightarrow~e^{i\theta}z. This then defines a fanning of the projective space and a form of algebraic variety called a Toric variety. These are sometimes called weighted projective spaces.
The projective space CP^2 the weighted projective space defines the equivalence class on the complex coordinates in { C { P}^2 .} by the map CP^2~\rightarrow~C{P^2}_w} defined by the action on the coordinates,

<br /> [z_1,~z_2]~\mapsto~[{z_1}^{a_1},~{z_2}^{a_2}],<br />

or

<br /> [z_1,~z_2]~\mapsto~[{r_1}^{a_1}e^{ia_1 \theta_1},<br /> ~{r_2}^{a_2}e^{ia_2 \theta_2}].<br />

This establishes an identification between the points in the {[0,~2 \pi r/a]} "pie slices" or fan sections of each complex line.

Now consider two maps:

<br /> f: CP^2~ \rightarrow~CP^2(a)~=~CP^2_w <br />

<br /> g: CP^2~\rightarrow~CP^2(b)~=~CP^2_{w&#039;},<br />

so that the weights for the two maps are unequal. dz_j and dz&#039;_j are differential basis one-forms in CP}^2_w and CP}^2_{w&#039;} respectively, which are easily computed. The dual vectors, V_j, V&#039;_jare easily computed. The vectors defines as L^{a_j}~=~a_j V_j are easily found and these obey a Witt algebra commutator which with the central extension may be extended to the Virasoro algebra.

<br /> [L^{a_j},~L^{b_j}]~=~(a_j~-~b_j) L^{a_j + b_j}~+~c(a_j ,b_j)<br />

For the Virasoro algebra without center

<br /> [L^a,~L^b]~=~{C^{ab}}_cL^{c}<br />

write the vector,\xi^\alpha~=~{\xi^\alpha}_a L^a where {\xi^\alpha} is an element of the Lie algebra \cal G. The commutator in of {\xi^\alpha}_a~\in~\cal G can be found as

<br /> [{\xi^\alpha}_a,~{\xi^\beta}_b]~=~{{C_g}^{\alpha \beta}}_\gamma {\xi^\gamma}_{a+b}<br />

associated with the Lie algebra \cal G.

Within a local trivialization connection coefficients may be defined as,

<br /> {(\eta^{-1}\partial_{\mu} \eta)_{\alpha}}^{\beta}<br /> ~=~\eta_{\alpha \gamma} \partial_{\mu}\eta^{\gamma \beta}<br /> ~=~{\xi^{\dagger}}_{\alpha a}{\xi^{\gamma}}_a<br /> ({\partial_{\mu} \xi^{\dagger}}_{\gamma}{\xi_b}^{\beta}~+~<br /> {\xi^{\dagger}}_{\gamma}\partial_{\mu}{\xi_b}^{\beta}),<br />

which are the conjugate terms {{A^\dagger}_\alpha}^\beta}_\mu~+~{{A_\alpha}^\beta}_\mu~=~{{\cal A}_{\alpha}}^\beta}_\mu. The curvature tensors {{\cal F}_{\alpha}}^\beta~=~{F_{\alpha}}^{\beta\dagger}~+~ {{F}_{\alpha}}^\beta consists of holomorphic and antiholomorphic curvatures,

<br /> {{{\cal F }_{\alpha}}^{\beta}}_{\mu \nu}~=<br /> \partial_{[\nu}(\eta_{\alpha \gamma} \partial_{\mu ]}\eta^{\beta \gamma})<br /> ~=~\partial_{[\nu}{{{{\cal A}}^{\beta \gamma}}_{\mu ]}}<br /> ~+~{{\cal A}^\dagger}_{\alpha \beta [ \mu}{{\cal A}^{\beta \gamma}}_{\nu ]}. <br />

It is possible to demonstrate that this obeys transformation properties of a gauge theory.

So this suggests a possible way in which the C(E_8)\oplus C(E_8)\oplus\sigma_x and the intersection form are associated with a fibration. I think the set of these K3 spaces and compactifications is assigned to the particles or maybe SUSY pairs of fields. The algebraic geometric definition of a surface S is according to the sheaf cohomology of a group G_s. In this way I think this might be related to sheaf structure similar to twistor theory.

Anyway this is where my "frontier" on this lies at the time. It will take some time to work this out, if I can. I am just one guy here, and I have had this idea cooking for not that long.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #326
I can't understand. Konstant got SU(5), which contains the standard model, yet distler insists that it is not possible! How come?
 
  • #327
MTd2 said:
I can't understand. Konstant got SU(5), which contains the standard model, yet distler insists that it is not possible! How come?

Good catch; although I can't really settle it one way or the other. There are four
distinct Lie groups that are usued without distinction :

(1)E8(-248), "compact" real dimension=248
(2)E8(8), "split", real dimension=248
(3)E8(-24), real dimension=248
(4)E8(C), "complex", real dimension=496

I think Distler/Lisi use E8(8), Kostant E8(-248) or E8(C) but I'm not sure.
 
  • #328
I think this is the point where mathematicians and physicists part ways. I am not sure but what Konstant may be saying is that he can reveal a product space of two copies of the group SU(5) in E8 but only as a subalgebra. This is like saying that there are hints of unification in the structure E8 (which is not the complete physics structure). This is not usable for a physicist where a Hilbert space and observables are needed. It looks like at the least that this still may spill over into using 2 E8s to naively build the SM. Though some people might not like it this (line of reasoning) will still probably lead to supersymmetry such as the MSSM in the heterotic string models.
 
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  • #329
fascinating talk by Kostant
http://mainstream.ucr.edu/baez_02_12_guest_stream.mov
I just watched the quicktime movie.
I tried to stop several times during it, because substantial parts were
beyond me, but my curiosity always got the upper hand and i'd get a snack or take
a break and then come back to it. The guy has great mathematics style.
It is hard now to believe that some variation of Lisi's program is not going
to lead to real physics somewhere down the line.
=======================

Just watched Baez introductory talk too.
http://mainstream.ucr.edu/baez_02_12_stream.mov
 
Last edited by a moderator:
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  • #330
Mark A Thomas said:
I think this is the point where mathematicians and physicists part ways. I am not sure but what Konstant may be saying is that he can reveal a product space of two copies of the group SU(5) in E8 but only as a subalgebra. This is like saying that there are hints of unification in the structure E8 (which is not the complete physics structure). This is not usable for a physicist where a Hilbert space and observables are needed. It looks like at the least that this still may spill over into using 2 E8s to naively build the SM. Though some people might not like it this (line of reasoning) will still probably lead to supersymmetry such as the MSSM in the heterotic string models.

For E_8 we can embed SL(2, Q) ~ SL(2,16), and if this is extended to E_8(C) which embeds SL(2, 32). From this we can define CL(0, 8)xCL(8, 0) ~ cl(16) and E_8(C) ---> E_8xE_8 ~ SO(32). This is sometimes called the 32 supersymmetries in the heterotic string. From there SO(10) is a standard result of decomposition. SO(10) is then "two copies" of SU(5). We may not be able to avoid the "two copies" E_8, and this does give preference to SO(10) as the "GUT" which might appear some 10^4 times the Planck length. SUSY does provide a way of getting the gauge heirarchy worked out there.

Frankly I think we need to go to three copies to get connect certain vertex operators for the Virasoro with compactified spaces associated with the \oplus_\pm C(E_8)\oplus\sigma_{\pm} to cancel out SUSY compactified states, and ... . I wrote some on this yesterday and this is a big open issue which is rather fascinating to think and work on.

It appears that Distler sees absolutely no value in Lisi's paper. I am not sure if I regard Lisi's root finding as a final answer, but dang! for once we have a simple (even if it is in some sense a toy model) representation of particles in E_8. I went through some of the bits and pieces of his calculations and outside of a couple of mistypes I found no gross errors. I seems to work! --- even if it is at this stage a demo-model.

Distler does make the following comment at the start, "I’m not going to talk about spin-statistics, or the Coleman-Mandula Theorem, or any of the Physics issues that could render Garrett’s idea a non-starter, ..." which is corrected if the framing transforms in the (0, 1/2) and (1/2, 0) of the Lorentz group. This is a part of what I have been jumping up and down about --- the system needs to be extended. Lisi's paper is a good show, but I do think things ain't done.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
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