An Exceptionally Technical Discussion of AESToE

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  • #331
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
It appears that Distler sees absolutely no value in Lisi's paper. I am not sure if I regard Lisi's root finding as a final answer, but dang! for once we have a simple (even if it is in some sense a toy model) representation of particles in E_8. I went through some of the bits and pieces of his calculations and outside of a couple of mistypes I found no gross errors. I seems to work! --- even if it is at this stage a demo-model.

It's seems unfair to call this a toy model. That aside, I don't see how you can say
that it seems to work when garett only claims that it works for 1 generation (Distiler
says it works for none). Are you disputing Distler's calculations?
 
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  • #332
So, having an SU(5) is not enough to have the standard model.
 
  • #333
MTd2 said:
So, having an SU(5) is not enough to have the standard model.

Besides SU(5)xSU(5), he also embeds S(U(3)×U(2)) x S(U(3)×U(2)) in E8,
S(U(3)×U(2)) is the SM gauge group
 
  • #334
rntsai said:
It's seems unfair to call this a toy model. That aside, I don't see how you can say
that it seems to work when garett only claims that it works for 1 generation (Distiler
says it works for none). Are you disputing Distler's calculations?

I suppose in the end all theories are "toys" of one sort.

I am still digesting Distler's arguments. I find the issue of embedding G_2 and F_4 to be of some interest. I am not sure as yet whether this renders the whole thing a nonstarter, or whether this can be "fixed" by extending E_8.

Even if this works for just one generation this is still progress. Progress is all we can really expect. I don't like the TOE designation for any theory. A moments thought should indicate that a theory which explains everything in fact explains nothing. All we can expect is a theory of something --- we make progress, find where the problems are and press on from there. If things were not this way, life would not be life.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #335
rntsai said:
Besides SU(5)xSU(5), he also embeds S(U(3)×U(2)) x S(U(3)×U(2)) in E8,
S(U(3)×U(2)) is the SM gauge group

So, Distler obviously made a big mistake in his calculations.
 
  • #336
MTd2 said:
So, having an SU(5) is not enough to have the standard model.

SU(5) is ruled out experimentally. The superKamiokande failed to detect proton decay rate predicted by SU(5). It has to be admitted that things are only a little better for SO(10), but there is more stuff to play with to extend the proton lifetime.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #337
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
SU(5) is ruled out experimentally.

But doesn't it contain the standard model anyway?
 
  • #338
MTd2 said:
So, Distler obviously made a big mistake in his calculations.

Not so obvious. They could be talking about different groups. See my previous
list of 4 possibilties. I actually think Distler is right although I haven't verified
what he did. The difference between these groups, embeddings,...is fairly
subtle. A mistake in sign or conjugation can move you from one setting to
another.
 
  • #339
MTd2 said:
But doesn't it contain the standard model anyway?

Yes, SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1) fits in there quite nicely.

L. C.
 
  • #340
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
Yes, SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1) fits in there quite nicely.

So, why can't we just assume Distler made a mistake. It doesn't seem he acknoledges a different group definition from what Konstant said, according to what rntsai says.

If it helps, John Baez reports on his summary that Konstant said "“E 8 is a symphony of twos, threes and fives”, http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2008/02/kostant_on_e8.html#more, on the last phrase of his post.

I also found among his other files, a text written by John McKay, called A Rapid Introduction to ADE Theory.

"E8 - icosahedral = <2,3,5> case, the singularity is x2+y3+z5=0 [...]

E8: x2+y3+z5=0

E7: x2+y3+yz3=0

E6: x2+y3+z4=0

This correspondence between the Platonic groups and the Lie algebras of type A,D,E is described in

* Peter Slodowy, Simple singularities and simple algebraic groups, in Lecture Notes in Mathematics 815, Springer, Berlin, 1980.

By using a subgroup to get the equivalence classes, we get the F,G series too."

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/ADE.html

PS.: Slodowy was a student of Konstant.
 
  • #341
MTd2 said:
So, why can't we just assume Distler made a mistake. It doesn't seem he acknoledges a different group definition from what Konstant said, according to what rntsai says.

With so much handwaving and random association around you shouldn't assume anything.

Distler seems precise in his definitions and notation. He specifically calls out
E8(8). Whatever you think of his personal style (I don't care much for it),
technical precision should be appreciated. Kostant seems to be using E8
compact or E8(C).

If it helps, John Baez reports on his summary that Konstant said "“E 8 is a symphony of twos, threes and fives”, http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2008/02/kostant_on_e8.html#more, on the last phrase of his post.

I also found among his other files, a text written by John McKay, called A Rapid Introduction to ADE Theory.

"E8 - icosahedral = <2,3,5> case, the singularity is x2+y3+z5=0 [...]

E8: x2+y3+z5=0

E7: x2+y3+yz3=0

E6: x2+y3+z4=0

This correspondence between the Platonic groups and the Lie algebras of type A,D,E is described in

Now this is a completely different setting. These are finite discrete groups; fairly
different than the continuous lie groups.
 
  • #342
Umm, the problem isn't with embedding the standard model into E8. Thats been done before. Nor is it a problem to put 2 generations in (or 3 if you forget about chirality).

The problem is putting in gravity as a gauge theory as well. SU(5) splits into the standard model but *not* the standard model + gravity.
 
  • #343
MTd2 said:
But doesn't it contain the standard model anyway?


Yes, but so does SO(10). There are in fact a range of possible GUTs which embed SM perfectly well. I think that some of the confusion here is that Distler used what appears to be an odd notation.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #344
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
Yes, but so does SO(10). There are in fact a range of possible GUTs which embed SM perfectly well. I think that some of the confusion here is that Distler used what appears to be an odd notation.

Lawrence B. Crowell

I wouldn't mention, but certainly, the source of confusion for me now, it is the dismissive tone Distler uses. It makes him sound that he went through the exactly the same method as Konstant, but "obviously", Distler is right in the end.

BTW, one of the main points of Distler is the use of Berger's classification to show he is wrong. I must confess that I don't know about it, and even I didn't find anything that accurately describe the initial work. Any way, in a brief search, I found that this Berger's classification is not quite strong, and perhaps it is not even ot possible to apply to Lisi's case:

The Berger classification

"In 1955, M. Berger gave a complete classification of possible holonomy groups for simply connected, Riemannian manifolds which are irreducible (not locally a product space) and nonsymmetric (not locally a Riemannian symmetric space)[...]

Lastly, Berger also classified non-metric holonomy groups of manifolds with merely an affine connection. That list was shown to be incomplete. Non-metric holonomy groups not on Berger's original list are referred to as exotic holonomies and examples have been found by R. Bryant and Chi, Merkulov, and Schwachhofer"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holonomy#The_Berger_classification

Here is the paper:

http://arxiv.org/abs/dg-ga/9508014

Maybe Distler is even right, it is just that he wants to be too picky and get one bad interpretation of the problem, instead of the right, and useful one.
 
  • #345
rntsai said ".. garett only claims that it [ E8 physics ] works for 1 generation (Distiler
says it works for none). ...".

Jacques Distler said (over on n-category cafe):
"... The more general argument, that it’s impossible to get even 2 generations is independent of any of the details of how the Standard Model is embedded in E 8 . ..."
and
he has a link to his blog where he gives more detail:
"... What we seek is an involution of the Lie algebra, e 8 .
The “bosons” correspond to the subalgebra, on which the involution acts as +1 ;
the “fermions” correspond to generators on which the involution acts as −1 .
...
the maximum number of −1 eigenvalues is 128 ... the 128 is the spinor representation
...".

So, Jacques Distler is only saying that you have 128 dimensions to play with to make fermions in an E8 model,
and
if you (for example) do as I do and let 128 = 64 + 64 = 8x8 + 8x8
with the first 8 in each 8x8 representing the 8 first-generation fundamental fermion
particles and antiparticles, respectively,
with the second and third generations being sort of composites of first-generation fermions,
then
that is permitted under Jacques Distler's arguments.

As he went on to say
"... Note that we are not replacing commutators by anti-commutators for the “fermions.” ... that would ... correspond to an “e 8 Lie superalgebra.” Victor Kač classified simple Lie superalgebras, and this isn’t one of them. ...
the “fermions” will have commutators, just like the “bosons.” ...".
That is one reason that conventional supersymmetry is not used in the construction I outlined above.

So, just as Distler pointed Garrett in the direction of using Spin(16) (and so two copies of D4) in E8 instead of F4 in E8,
Distler has indicated that E8 physics should have 1 generation of fundamental fermions, with generations 2 and 3 being more composite than fundamental,
and
Jacques Distler's arguments, far from disrediting E8 physics, show the robustness of E8 physics modelling.

Tony Smith

PS - In his representation of each generation of fermions,
Jacques Distler (on his blog entry mentioned above where he uses more detailed notation than I am using on this text-type comment)
defines R = (3,2) + (3,1) + (3,1) + (1,2) + 1,1)
and
uses as representation for each generation of particles and antiparticles
(2,R+(1,1)) + (2,R+(1,1))
for a total of
2x(6+3+3+2+1+1) + 2x(6+3+3+2+1+1) = 2x16 + 2x16 = 64
dimensions to represent each generation
so
he notes that 128 = 2 x 64 and says
"... we can, at best, find two generations ...".
However,
he goes on to say that two generations will not work using the 64 + 64 = 128,
because
"... instead of two generations [from that 64 + 64],
one obtains a generation and an anti-generation ..."
which
is indeed what comes from the E8 physics construction described above
with one 8x8 for first-generation fermion particles and the other 8x8 for first-generation fermion antiparticles.

Distler raises a further objection about fermion chirality, saying
"... the spectrum of “fermions” is always nonchiral ...".

However, just as the composite nature of generations 2 and 3 allows construction of a realistic E8 model with one generation of fermion particles and antiparticles,
the chirality (or handed-ness) of fermions is not a problem with my E8 model because
fundamentally all fermion particles are left-handed and all fermion antiparticles are right-handed,
with the opposite handedness emerging dynamically for massive fermions.
Such dynamical emergence of handed-ness is described by L. B. Okun, in his book Leptons and Quarks (North-Holland (2nd printing 1984) page 11) where he said:

"... a particle with spin in the direction opposite to that of its momentum ...[is]... said to possesses left-handed helicity, or left-handed polarization. A particle is said to possesses right-handed helicity, or polarization, if its spin is directed along its momentum. The concept of helicity is not Lorentz invariant if the particle mass is non-zero. The helicity of such a particle depends oupon the motion of the observer's frame of reference. For example, it will change sign if we try to catch up with the particle at a speed above its velocity. Overtaking a particle is the more difficult, the higher its velocity, so that helicity becomes a better quantum number as velocity increases. It is an exact quantum number for massless particles ...
The above space-time structure ... means ... that at ...[ v approaching the speed of light ]... particles have only left-handed helicity, and antparticles only right-handed helicity. ...".

Again, Distler's chirality argument does not discredit E8 physics, but instead show how to construct it as a solid realistic physics model.
 
  • #346
MTd2 said:
So, why can't we just assume Distler made a mistake. It doesn't seem he acknoledges a different group definition from what Konstant said, according to what rntsai says.

I don't think that Distler made a mistake. You have that the E_6 lattice is defined in E_8 by

<br /> E_6~=~\{(x_1,~x_2,~\dots,~x_8)~\in~E_8~:x_6~=~x_7~=~x_8\}<br />

The simplest subgroup decomposition is D_6 ~ SO(12). If I might be so bold this contains the Pati-Salam SU(2)xSU(2) model with the QCD SU(3). If I "pop off" one of the circles from the D_6 ---> D_5 I then obtain the SO(10). Now if I were to pull this back to the E_8 I have to removed the centralizer Z_5, as E_8 has 2-3-5 centralizers in addition to the C(E_8). This I believe is where the (SU(5)xSU(5))/Z_5 enters into the picture. If we break this to SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1) I think (I state this without proof) that the second fundamental group

<br /> \pi_2\Big(\frac{(SU(5)\times SU(5))/Z_5}{SU(3)\times SU(2)\times U(1)/Z_6}\Big)~=~Z_2<br />

which I think is a 't Hooft-Polyakov monopole. The centralizer Z_5 reflects the 5-cycles (12 permutations) around the x,~\infty points on the E_8 icosahedron.
MTd2 said:
If it helps, John Baez reports on his summary that Konstant said "“E 8 is a symphony of twos, threes and fives”, http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2008/02/kostant_on_e8.html#more, on the last phrase of his post.

I also found among his other files, a text written by John McKay, called A Rapid Introduction to ADE Theory.

"E8 - icosahedral = <2,3,5> case, the singularity is x2+y3+z5=0 [...]

E8: x2+y3+z5=0

E7: x2+y3+yz3=0

E6: x2+y3+z4=0

This correspondence between the Platonic groups and the Lie algebras of type A,D,E is described in

* Peter Slodowy, Simple singularities and simple algebraic groups, in Lecture Notes in Mathematics 815, Springer, Berlin, 1980.

Without checking, did you get the E_6 and E_7 switched around?

MTd2 said:
By using a subgroup to get the equivalence classes, we get the F,G series too."

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/ADE.html

PS.: Slodowy was a student of Konstant.

Interesting. I wonder what bearing this might have on the (SU(5)xSU(5))Z_5.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #347
Is suppose the icosahedral relationships might be right. At least this is what Baez has. Somehow the two are related by the condition \sum_{i=1}^8e_i~=~0 as a linear dependece on E_7 to the condition e_6 = e_7 = e_8 on E_6.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #348
Lawrence, my doubts were solved by John Baez. I thought that a representation for a group, you would autmaticaly get a represention for the subgroups, that suited the subtheories, just like the standard model.
 
  • #349
Haelfix said:
Umm, the problem isn't with embedding the standard model into E8. Thats been done before. Nor is it a problem to put 2 generations in (or 3 if you forget about chirality).

The problem is putting in gravity as a gauge theory as well. SU(5) splits into the standard model but *not* the standard model + gravity.

The problem is that gravity is SO(3,1), which makes the group hyperbolic. It is different from SO(4), the Euclidean version of the same group, in that SO(4) is compact. SO(3,1) is not. With SO(4) you can define connections which will converge in a Cauchy series. The hyperbolic nature of SO(3,1), and SO(7,1) as well, means that a sequence of connections can go off to "asymptopia" and never converge.

For this reason it is not difficult to globally define a quantum vacuum state with compact support. A vacuum in one region or chart in the spacetime does not in general transform unitarily to a vacuum in another chart. This leads to Hawking radiation. With quantum gravity the situation is compounded. The unitary inequivalence now extends to any infinitesimal region. A superposition of states over metric configuration variables means that a point is shared by a set of metrics in a nonunitary manner. We then no longer can define a vacuum state by standard methods.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #350
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
The problem is that gravity is SO(3,1), which makes the group hyperbolic.

I thought the problem was with the representation of the embeding.
 
  • #351
MTd2 said:
I thought the problem was with the representation of the embeding.

I think it is best to think physically. If one tries to just quantize basic gravity SO(3,1) you run into a gemish of trouble. The problem is that you can't define a vacuum state, but rather you have a whole set of them which are inequivalent. This is one reason for the euclideanization procedure. Yet that defines an instanton state, or the tunnelling of a cosmology. The transition from SO(4) ---> SO(3,1) is still problematic, and after all the universe is Lorentzian. On SO(4) connection are defined on a finite or compact group, and then under the tunnelling these connections are defined on a noncompact group and the number of solutions becomes "infinite." Physically this means that attempting to define a vacuum is problematic and the physics is not bounded below.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #352
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
I think it is best to think physically.

Ok, but how does that relate to Distler's Objection?
 
  • #353
Maybe you could re interpret Lisi's theory as lying in the whole Total Space, instead of just laying on the fiber.

That is, get the subgroup SU(5)XSU(5) from E(8), on the total space. Now, define SU(5) on the base space and other SU(5) on the fiber.

It might be possible to define a unique connection in both spaces such that the copy on the base space corresponds to the SU(5) with gravity and lorentz signature and the other, on the fiber with SU(5) with euclidean signature. You could use E(8), laying on the total space, to solve general local physical inconsistencies, if they show up.
 
  • #354
MTd2 said:
Lastly, Berger also classified non-metric holonomy groups of manifolds with merely an affine connection. That list was shown to be incomplete. Non-metric holonomy groups not on Berger's original list are referred to as exotic holonomies and examples have been found by R. Bryant and Chi, Merkulov, and Schwachhofer"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holonomy#The_Berger_classification

Here is the paper:

http://arxiv.org/abs/dg-ga/9508014

Maybe Distler is even right, it is just that he wants to be too picky and get one bad interpretation of the problem, instead of the right, and useful one.


This paper is interesting. What is interesting is the statement at the beginning of the paper:

However, it is the subject of the present article to prove that, even up to finitely many
missing terms, Berger’s list is still incomplete. This is done by proving the existence of
an infinite family of irreducible representations which are not on this list, yet do occur as
holonomy of torsion-free connections. These representations are:

Sl(2,C)SO(n,C), acting on R8n ∼= C2 ⊗ Cn, where n ≥ 3,
Sl(2,R)SO(p, q), acting on R2(p+q) ∼= R2 ⊗ Rp+q, where p + q ≥ 3,
Sl(2,R)SO(2,R), acting on R4 ∼= R2 ⊗ R2.
(1)

This infinite family is due to the noncompact nature of these groups. From a mathematical perspective this is one major problem for quantum gravity

If we have a bracket structure in a group G then elements obey

<br /> \{A,~B\}~=~I_{\omega(dA)}dB~=~-I_{\omega(dB}}dA<br />

for I_{\omega(d**)} a pseudocomplex matrix or operator. This is used to define the symplectic structure in classical mechanics for \omega a closed form which maps functions or vectors into a set of symplectic vectors. To do quantum gravity we can't simply define this according to spacetime vector fields, for physically we are talking about states which are functionals over a set of spacetimes. The vector exists in superspace.

I think this bracket structure and the \omega will then have some connection to how gauge fields are compactified. In a post the other day I indicated how SUSY pairs of elementary particles are canceled against "quirky" spacetimes, and I think this somehow plays a role in quantum gravity. To make the matter sucinct quantum fields and elementary particles have the structure they do in order to "regularize" quantum gravity.

Maybe this paper holds a few clues along these lines.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #355
MTd2 said:
Maybe you could re interpret Lisi's theory as lying in the whole Total Space, instead of just laying on the fiber.

That is, get the subgroup SU(5)XSU(5) from E(8), on the total space. Now, define SU(5) on the base space and other SU(5) on the fiber.

It might be possible to define a unique connection in both spaces such that the copy on the base space corresponds to the SU(5) with gravity and lorentz signature and the other, on the fiber with SU(5) with euclidean signature. You could use E(8), laying on the total space, to solve general local physical inconsistencies, if they show up.

No that is not how it happens. Just think of SU(5) with a double. The E_8 supports the SO(7,1) + 8 + 8 + 8 and the SU(3) + 3 + bar-3 + 1 + bar-1 which is similar to 11-dimensional supergravity (though the "super" part here is a bit "chopped at the knees") So an lattice in 8-dimensions defines a system of gauge fields in 11-dimensions. E_8(C) will accommodate two SU(5)s very well.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #356
Lawrence B. Crowell said:
No that is not how it happens.

I understand what you say, and I agree with that. I thought that you could interpret this problem in terms of fibre buddle. The total space containing E(8), while the fibre and the base, each one, containing a kind of SU(5), although with different signatures. It would also make a map betten gravity and the other fields, without coupling them. The coupling would be done at the total space.

To see in other way. Let's say that E(8) is the bulk, like the containing parts of an aquarium. If you see from one side, you see everything from the point of view of gravity, or aproximately, General Relativy. You face the fish. If you look from the other side, you see see everything from the point of view of the other fields, or aproximately, the Standard Model. You can project all the E(8) fields on each side, but this symmetry will be broken. But the overall it is the same thing.

So, that's why I am asking about this scheme. I would like a one-to-one mapping between parts of the same problem, while trying to make some sense of what would be the relation, in this case between the tangent space and the bundle. That is they don't interact at all. Also, it would be nice to not let them interact at all, making them just different descriptions of what is happening on the bulk, total space.

PS.: This is just crackpotery at best, I'm afraid. But... I'm trying!
 
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  • #357
MTd2 said:
I understand what you say, and I agree with that. I thought that you could interpret this problem in terms of fibre buddle. The total space containing E(8), while the fibre and the base, each one, containing a kind of SU(5), although with different signatures. It would also make a map betten gravity and the other fields, without coupling them. The coupling would be done at the total space.

E_8 is a lattice of roots, which exists in 8 dimensions. The lattice is defined by the set of Weyl chamber reflections

<br /> x~\rightarrow~x~-~2r\frac{r\cdot x}{|r|^2}<br />

on any vector x by the root vector r. These reflections define a set of angles, which for complex groups include dihedral angles and angles between higher dimensional sublattice structures. For E_8 the set of roots, 240 in all, defines the Grosset polytope which exists in 8 dimensions.

The roots may correspond to roots for some subgroups, and this can be broken out in a number of ways. As you said Baez indicated that a representation of a group does not give automatically a representation of all its subgroups. .

What you indicate with respect to the "bulk" is not far off the mark from what people want to do. We have groups of interior symmetries [A_i,~A_j]~=~C^k_{ij}A_k, such as found in gauge fields, and there are then exterior symmetries given by the Lorentz-Poincare generators P_a and M_{ab} (and the Pauli-Ljubanski vector), with possible symmetries on the (0, 1/2)-(1/2, 0) spinor representations of the theory (supersymmetry) and finally the discrete symmetries on C-P-T. One central distinction between the internal symmetries and exterior symmetries (spacetime) is that internal symmetries are compact such as SO(n) while exterior symmetries are noncompact such as SO(3,1). Now in the E_8 root paper by Garrett there is the group SO(7,1) = SO(3,1)xSO(4) (plus on the algebra level) and of course the three "8's" framed on this. In this way a noncompact group can have a compact subgroup.

A simple example is the the Lorentz group which consists of three ordinary rotation in space plus three boosts, which are hyperbolic. This is SL(2,C) ~ SU(2)xSU(1,1), and so we might think of the embedding of gauge groups with compact group structure with general relativity as analogous to this.

If we think of gravity as a gauge-like theory with F~=~dA~+~A\wedge A for nonabelian gauge fields the DE's for these on the classical level are nonlinear. Yet we can quantize these, but renormalization is a bit complicated. We can well enough quantize a SO(4) theory obtained in euclideanization. But gravity is a strangely different. Why? The gauge group SU(1,1) is hyperbolic. In the Pauli matrix representation we have that \tau_z~=~i\sigma_z. So we cha form a gauge connection

<br /> A~=~A^{\pm}\sigma_{\pm}~+~iA^3 \sigma_3<br />

and for the group element g~=~e^{ix\tau_3}~=~e^{-x\sigma_3} the connection term transforms as

<br /> A&#039;~=~g^{-1}Ag~+~g^{-1}dg~=~e^{-2x}A^{\pm}\sigma_{\pm}~+~iA^3\sigma_3<br />

and for x~\rightarrow~\infty this gives A~\rightarrow~iA^3\sigma_3. Now A^{\pm}\sigma_{\pm} and A^3\sigma_3 have distinct holonomy groups and are thus distinct points (moduli) in the moduli space. But this limit has a curious implication that the field F~=~dA~+~A\wedge A for these two are the same and the moduli are not separable. In other words the moduli space for gravity is not Hausdorff. This is the most serious problem for quantum gravity.

I have written some on this, and later I might illustrate how this requires some interplay between Golay codes and Goppa codes. Goppa codes are a very different domain, where here the Hamming distance is computed from algebraic varieties, such as projective varieties or elliptic curves. The point set topolology is non-Hausdorff or Zariski in this system. This is a crucial element to quantum gravity, unless you want to work completely in an elliptical domain, but this physically would mean the universe has not tunnelled out of the vacuum with imaginary time into a real state with real time. So there is a lot more to this physics than finding representations of groups --- though that is an important part.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
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  • #358
Tony Smith said:
rntsai said ".. garett only claims that it [ E8 physics ] works for 1 generation (Distiler
says it works for none). ...".

Jacques Distler said ... .

As he went on to say
"... Note that we are not replacing commutators by anti-commutators for the “fermions.” ... that would ... correspond to an “e 8 Lie superalgebra.” Victor Kač classified simple Lie superalgebras, and this isn’t one of them. ...
the “fermions” will have commutators, just like the “bosons.” ...".
That is one reason that conventional supersymmetry is not used in the construction I outlined above.

So, just as Distler pointed Garrett in the direction of using Spin(16) (and so two copies of D4) in E8 instead of F4 in E8,
Distler has indicated that E8 physics should have 1 generation of fundamental fermions, with generations 2 and 3 being more composite than fundamental,
and
Jacques Distler's arguments, far from disrediting E8 physics, show the robustness of E8 physics modelling.

Tony Smith

If you have a bosonic field B and it is framed with a fermionic field F with the Grassmannian @ the B~+~\theta F then the commutators of the bosonic field are extended to anticommutators of F. In supersymmetric theory the Grassmannians are parameters with the supergenerators give the SUSY commutator

<br /> [\theta Q,~{\bar\theta}{\bar Q}]~=~2\theta\sigma^\mu{\bar\theta}P_\mu<br />

which is where Distler's comment about E_8 superalgebra comes from. If we use the Berezin integral

<br /> \int d(\theta)f(\theta)~=~f_1<br />

then f(\theta)~=~f_0~+~\theta f_1 in a Taylor series using \int d\theta\theta~=~1. We might then generalize the Cl(7,1) Clifford basis as

<br /> \Gamma_\mu~=~\Gamma^0_\mu~+~\theta_\alpha f^\alpha_\mu<br />,

where f^\alpha_\mu acts on the connection term to give a spinor connection in the superalgebra. In this way the theory is extended to E_8(C) ~ E_8xE_8.

Lawrence B. Crowell
 
  • #360
gauge theory in v*f contraction

The duality of a differential form and a vector \vec v, \underline f is seen in the product

<br /> \vec{v} \underline{f}~=~v^i\vec{\partial_i}\underline{dx}^j f_j~=~v^if_i<br />

Let us write the vector as {\vec v}~=~e^{-2V}D_\alpha and the differential form as {\underline f}~=~e^{2V}{\underline dx}^\alpha. The differential D_\alpha in general may be gauged. For V constant the duality is clearly {\vec v}{\underline f}~=~1 and in more general

<br /> {\vec v}{\underline f}~=~1~+~(2D_\alpha V){\underline dx}^\alpha.<br />

We now consider this system under the gauge transformation

<br /> e^{2V}~\rightarrow~e^{-i\Lambda^\dagger}e^{2V}e^{i\Lambda}<br />

which for \Lambda "small" gives a variation

<br /> \delta V~=~e^{2V}~+~i(e^{-2V}\Lambda~-~\Lambda^\dagger e^{-2V}~\simeq e^{-i\Lambda^\dagger}e^{2V}e^{i\Lambda}<br /> ~i(\Lambda~-~\lambda^\dagger)~+~\frac{i}{2}[V,~\Lambda~+~\Lambda^\dagger]<br />

and the contraction transforms as

<br /> {\vec v}{\underline f}~\rightarrow~v_if^i~+~e^{-i\Lambda^\dagger}\big(D_\alpha V~+~i(D_\alpha\Lambda~-~D_\alpha\Lambda^\dagger)\big)e^{i\Lambda}<br />

For F_\alpha~=~D_\alpha V a gauge potential this transformation of the contraction then defines the transformation of the gauge potential by

<br /> F_\alpha~=~F_\alpha~+~i(D_\alpha\Lambda~-~D_\alpha\Lambda^\dagger)<br />

Lawrence B. Crowell
 

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