Why Can't We Use \int^{β}_{α} rdθ for Polar Curve Arc Length?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the arc length of polar curves and the reasoning behind the correct formula for calculating this length. Participants explore why the simpler model of using \(\int^{β}_{α} rdθ\) is inadequate compared to the more complex formula \(\int^{β}_{α}\sqrt{r^{2}+(\frac{dr}{dθ})^{2}} \ dθ\). The scope includes mathematical reasoning and conceptual clarification regarding polar coordinates.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that dividing the polar curve into sectors leads to the approximation \(ds = rdθ\) but questions why this approach is incorrect.
  • Another participant points out that by Pythagoras, the relationship \(ds^2 = (rdθ)^2 + dr^2\) indicates that the \(dr\) term cannot be ignored in general cases.
  • A later reply emphasizes that the radial movement can be significant compared to the tangential movement, especially in cases where the curve moves directly away from the origin, resulting in \(dθ\) being zero and leaving only \(dr\).
  • One participant notes that a straight line radiating from the origin must have an arc length formula in polar coordinates, despite the angular coordinate remaining constant.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of the simpler arc length formula, with some agreeing on the necessity of including the \(dr\) term while others question the reasoning behind the initial approximation. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the validity of the simpler model.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the initial reasoning, particularly the dependence on the relationship between radial and tangential movements, which may vary across different segments of the curve.

Bipolarity
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If we divide the polar curve into infinitely thin sectors, the arc length of a single sector can be approximated by ds = \frac{dθ}{2π}2πr = rdθ. So why can't we model the arc length of the curve as \int^{β}_{α} rdθ

It turns out that the correct formula is actually
\int^{β}_{α}\sqrt{r^{2}+(\frac{dr}{dθ})^{2}} \ dθ
I know how the correct formula is derived, I just can't figure out why the reasoning for the first formula is incorrect.

BiP
 
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By Pythagoras, ds2 = (rdθ)2+dr2. You can't go ignoring the dr term in general.
 
haruspex said:
By Pythagoras, ds2 = (rdθ)2+dr2. You can't go ignoring the dr term in general.

My question was, why can't you use the arc length of the sector?

BiP
 
Bipolarity said:
My question was, why can't you use the arc length of the sector?

BiP
Because in general the radial movement is of comparable magnitude to the tangential movement. In the extreme case, part of the curve might move directly away from the origin, so there dθ would be zero and you would only have dr.
 
A straight line radiating from the origin must also have an arc length formula in polar coordinates, even though the angular coordinate remains a constant along the whole curve.
 

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