News Are Civilian Casualties Ever Justifiable in Conflict Scenarios?

[studentx]

It is Islam that is trying to destroy the West not the other way around. Did we try to install a Christian government in Afghanistan or Iraq the way the Muslims installed Islamic governmets in countries they conquered? Have we outlawed Islam the way Saudi Arabia has outlawed Christianity or even discriminated against it the way every Muslim country discriminates against Christianity?

The west is not christianity and the east is not Islam. By admitting that this is a war of total destruction between Christianity and Islam you turn billions into a spot where they can not be tolerant anymore. You want the world to acknowledge the problem as total warfare, but why? Shouldnt we be looking for a better way out than the destruction of the planet?

So telling the truth about Mohammed is insulting? You can quote anything from the New Testament or what the early church fathers wrote about Christ and I don't know of too many Christian would be insulted. If I quote from the the Qur'an, and the inspired Sunnah collections of Ibn Ishaq's Sira, al-Tabari's History, and Bukhari's and Muslim's Hadith. then Muslims are insulted?

Like was said before, you DID twist the meaning of some of your Quranic quotes by not supplying the entire verse. I think you did it unintentionally, because youve learned Islam from Islamic hate sites, and i suggested before that you find some unbiased sources.

 

[Hurkyl]

This is just one example how Islam wages war against the West.
Storm over Italy crucifix ruling

And how is this "war"? It's entirely peaceful: there is no force involved. And other groups have been doing this sort of thing for a long time in the U.S., so it's hardly a Muslim-specific phenomenon.

(e.g. search on the keywords prayer school)

 

[Smurf]

In france they banned headscarfs, along with other religious symbols. This is them trying to be a 'secular state' not descriminating, or waging war, muslims is it.

 

[Outcast]

The west is not christianity and the east is not Islam. By admitting that this is a war of total destruction between Christianity and Islam you turn billions into a spot where they can not be tolerant anymore. You want the world to acknowledge the problem as total warfare, but why?

Shouldnt we be looking for a better way out than the destruction of the planet?

Like was said before, you DID twist the meaning of some of your Quranic quotes by not supplying the entire verse. I think you did it unintentionally, because youve learned Islam from Islamic hate sites, and i suggested before that you find some unbiased sources.

First if the West is not Christian, than what is it?

Shouldnt we be looking for a better way out than the destruction of the planet?

Yes, I agree! But first you have to make people realize that a problem exists. Most of you refuse to admit a problem exists. Once you admit a problem exists, then you can work toward a solution. Is there something wrong with that?

Like was said before, you DID twist the meaning of some of your Quranic quotes by not supplying the entire verse.

Posting the entire Quarn around those verses I quoted would not change the meaning of them. Go look them up on the net for yourself and see how they are used.

Try this one

Ishaq: 676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet.

The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said, ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’

‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”

Put it back in context to show why Muhammad was justified in asking someone to kill this women. And his attitude toward her death, justify that also. Or maybe you could find something similar out of the New Testament to show Christ was that cold blooded or maybe something to show that Budda was just as depraved.

Good luck

 

[Outcast]

And how is this "war"? It's entirely peaceful: there is no force involved. And other groups have been doing this sort of thing for a long time in the U.S., so it's hardly a Muslim-specific phenomenon.

(e.g. search on the keywords prayer school)

It is the same thing we are facing here in American. The destruction of our culture by the Left, but that is a whole different topic.

Jailed Terror Suspect Helped ACLU Draft Schools' Anti-Christian Rules

WASHINGTON – Abdurahman Alamoudi, an alleged senior terrorist operative, is behind bars on an 18-count indictment. But he can take satisfaction in the fact that a court in California has just given the green light to schools following ACLU’s religion-in-the-classroom guidelines, which he helped to formulate.

Left-Wing Groups Silent on Schools' Muslim Indoctrination

WASHINGTON – Parents who are furious that their children are receiving indoctrination in Islam in their schools have yet to hear support from most of the same left-wing groups that loudly lecture Americans on what they call “separation of church and state,” a phrase that appears nowhere in the U.S. Constitution.

Thus far, not a peep out of American Civil Liberties Union, Moveon.org, the misnamed People for the American Way or many others of their ilk. ACLU continues to refuse NewsMax's request for comment.

MANDATING THE KORAN

TThe ACLU finally finds a religion it can tolerate. Surprise--it's Islam.

When a state university requires students to immerse themselves in the study of a particular religion, it can expect trouble. That's exactly what the University of North Carolina got for its summer reading requirement that all incoming freshmen read portions of the Koran and commentary by a religious scholar. The school now faces a lawsuit from a group of students and alumni, charging violations of the First Amendment..

RELIGION AND PRAYER IN U.S. PUBLIC SCHOOLS ACCOMMODATING MUSLIMS

When most North Americans think of prayer in the public school system, they usually consider:

Brief morning exercises involving the entire class, with prayers prepared by the local school officials.

Prayer in student-organized and led religious clubs whose right to exist is guaranteed in most public schools by the Equal Access law.

That may be true for Christians and followers of many other religions. Their religion allows them to pray at random times during the school day and through the week. But Muslims represent a special case. They are expected to pray at specific times each day.

2001-DEC: Canada: Ryerson University, Toronto ON : Some Muslim students are frustrated at having to use halls, student lounges, or a tiny Multifaith Center to pray. They have enlisted the support of Hakeem Olajuwon - a devout Muslim and a 7-foot tall basketball star who plays center for the Toronto Raptors. He wrote a letter to the university administrators, asking them to provide students with a larger prayer room. Administrators have said it's not Ryerson's responsibility to provide a bigger space.

2001-NOV: NY: New York City public schools: Chancellor Harold Levy stated that the city would facilitate prayers for Muslim students during the lunar month of Ramadan -- an Islamic holy time of fasting and spiritual activities. Students would be allowed to leave classes briefly to pray. Prayer rooms would be established where they could worship. Response was varied:
bullet Some have objected to the linkage of religion and public schooling; they regard Levy's decision to be a violation of the principle of separation of church and state.

Others object to special privileges for one faith, and the exclusion of all others. William Donohue, president of the Catholic League "commended Chancellor Levy for his decision to endorse the rights of Muslim students. However, he told Levy that 'in the spirit of inclusiveness,' it was only fitting that public schools extend that same respect for religious tradition to every child."

Others point out that Islam is the only popular faith in the city which needs to be accommodated in this way. Islamic prayers are expected to be said at specific times during the day. Christians and others can organize Bible Clubs and similar groups which can hold prayer sessions outside of classroom hours.

Ok, now what do you want me to search for to prove your point about school prayers?

And how is this "war"? It's entirely peaceful: there is no force involved.

I posted earlier

War in the conventional sense of battlefields ended in the 1700s due to the technological inferiority of Islam. Today Islam still wages war against the West other than open warfare on the battlefield.

http://yconservatives.com/Guest-72.html

Islam President Bush and others have referred to Islam as a “peaceful religion” and say that Islam itself is not America’s enemy. And I say, “Wanna’ bet?” The following excerpt is taken from the editorial section of the Dallas Morning News, October 1, 2003, in reference to a Mr. Abdurahman Alamoudi, a “prominent American Muslim leader.” His words should strike fear into the heart of every freedom-loving American:

“Mr. Alamoudi, a backer of Hamas and Hizbollah…told an Islamic audience in Chicago: ‘I think if we are outside this country, we can say, ‘Oh, Allah, destroy America,’ but once we are here, our mission in this country is to change it. There is no way for Muslims to be violent in America, no way. We have other means to do it.”

Notice the "mission" this Muslim leader explicitly stated, with respect to Islam, Muslims and their plans for the future of the United States: “once we are here, our mission in this country is to change it.” But they’re smart enough to know that violence here will not get it done. So he says, “We have other means to do it.” Do what? Take control of America from within through political and other channels, and then turn it into a nation governed under the iron rule of Islam. In virtually every country where Islam rules, it denies the people there the most basic rights of human freedom, including: freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of worship, and freedom of assembly.

 

[Outcast]

In france they banned headscarfs, along with other religious symbols.

This is them trying to be a 'secular state' not descriminating, or waging war, muslims is it.

If you would read the news more often you would learn that

1) the ban in France was issued by the government, not through a lawsuit by an individual.
2) the ban in France was aimed at ALL religion, Islam, Judaism and Christian, and not just Islam
3) The Christians are not taking hostages and threating to cut off heads, unless the Cruifix is restored.

This is them trying to be a 'secular state' not descriminating, or waging war, muslims is it.

What did I say earlier?
Islam is at war with the West, the West is not at war with Islam.

 

[studentx]

Ishaq: 676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet.

The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said, ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’

‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”

And you took this from where? Many Hadith and other islamic writings are considered falsified bull**** by muslims. I don't know where you got this quote from, but are you sure this is considered authentic?

 

[Outcast]

And you took this from where? Many Hadith and other islamic writings are considered falsified bull**** by muslims. I don't know where you got this quote from, but are you sure this is considered authentic?

Yes I am sure or I would not have posted it. I am too use to writing term papers to not be able to defend my position. I don't have to make up lies about Muhammad. He is really a vile immoral person. I first ran across that verse in Prophet of Doom: Islam's Terrorist Dogma in Muhammad's Own Words
Editors Review

Craig Winn's controversial and inflammatory work, Prophet of Doom, begins with this statement: "Islam is a caustic blend of regurgitated paganism and twisted Bible stories.

I didn't think anyone on here would accept him as creditable source.

I then found Muhammad
by Maxime Rodinson, Anne Carter. The editor review said

A definitive and fascinating introduction to the life, ideas, and impact of the founder of Islam. Maxime Rodinson's Muhammad has long been regarded as one of the touchstones of scholarship on the founder of Islam.

He too made reference to the same verse. It is much harder to dismiss him as a hate monger.
You can read the whole thing in context
MUHAMMAD AND THE DEATH OF ASMA BINT MARWAN. You may not like the website, but its the same verses that Rodinson mentioned.

Now do you want to hear about Muhammad being a pedophile?

 

[Smurf]

Once Again:
Islam condemns the slaughter of innocents and prohibits suicide. Nothing will be solved by searching for ‘true Islam’ or quoting the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a vast, vague book, filled with poetry and contradictions (much like the Bible). You can find in it condemnations of war and incitements to struggle, beautiful expressions of tolerance and stern pictures against unbelievers. Quotations from it usually tell us more about the person who selected the passages than about Islam. Every religion is compatible with the best and the worst of humankind.

 

[studentx]

Once Again:
Islam condemns the slaughter of innocents and prohibits suicide. Nothing will be solved by searching for ‘true Islam’ or quoting the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a vast, vague book, filled with poetry and contradictions (much like the Bible). You can find in it condemnations of war and incitements to struggle, beautiful expressions of tolerance and stern pictures against unbelievers. Quotations from it usually tell us more about the person who selected the passages than about Islam. Every religion is compatible with the best and the worst of humankind.

The Quran makes up about 1% of islamic literature, even tho the book says it should be the only one.The lifes of both messengers, Jesus and Muhammed are completely opposite of each other, and Muhammed isn't the peaceful one. Theres quite a big difference between what the Quran says and the story of Muhammeds life.

 

[Outcast]

Once Again:
Islam condemns the slaughter of innocents and prohibits suicide. Nothing will be solved by searching for ‘true Islam’ or quoting the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a vast, vague book, filled with poetry and contradictions (much like the Bible). You can find in it condemnations of war and incitements to struggle, beautiful expressions of tolerance and stern pictures against unbelievers. Quotations from it usually tell us more about the person who selected the passages than about Islam. Every religion is compatible with the best and the worst of humankind.

filled with poetry and contradictions (much like the Bible).

Tell me about all these "contradictions" in the Biblical teachings. The Bible was written over a period of 1500 years by 40 diffrent men. The Ouar was written in 22 years by one man. You would think one man could keep his story straight.

Yes men do pervert the teachings of Christ for their own evil ends, but men do not have to pervert the teaching of Islam. Islam is already perverted. Yahweh is the God of the Bible. Allah is the god of the Quran. The two are not the same.

Look at the life of Jesus or Buddha and you will find nothing like what you see in the life of Muhammad. Were Jesus or Buddha pedophiles, Muhammad was. Did Christ or Buddha ever have their critics assassinated, Muhammad did. Did Christ or Buddha ever lead their follower on raid, to kill, to rape, to pillage, to gain slaves, Muhammad did. All the fine words and poetry that were plagiarized from the Bible are meaningless, when you are being robed and killed, you wife and daughter is being raped and sold into slavery. Of course Islam condemns the slaughter of innocents, its hard to rape the dead and to sell them into slavery.

To be Christian is to be Christ like.
To be Buddhist is to be Buddha like.
To be Muslim is to be Muhammad like. And you see what Muhammad was like. That is what the Western World is facing today, what if first faced almost 1400 ago. Islam has not changed since the death of Muhammad.

My heart does go out to the Muslims of the world who worship in ignorance. Is it any wonder that Islam will tolerate no other religion the way other religions do. Islam cannot stand up to the light of truth.

John 8:32
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

I pray that someday they will know the truth and become free.

 

[selfAdjoint]

It's ironic that on this view, Christians have never been consistently able to emulate Jesus, who preached to the good side of humanity, but Muslims have had no trouble emulating Mohammed, who preached to the dark side.

I repeat that this comment is entirely contingent on Outcast's view of Islam, and I do not necessarily endorse that. I would like a specific source in the Islamic scriptures for that woman-murder story. Reminds me of Henry II and Thomas a Becket, with the wrong ending.

 

[Outcast]

It's ironic that on this view, Christians have never been consistently able to emulate Jesus, who preached to the good side of humanity, but Muslims have had no trouble emulating Mohammed, who preached to the dark side.

I repeat that this comment is entirely contingent on Outcast's view of Islam, and I do not necessarily endorse that. I would like a specific source in the Islamic scriptures for that woman-murder story. Reminds me of Henry II and Thomas a Becket, with the wrong ending.

What type of specfic source would you like?

Ishaq: 676

 

[Artman]

Yahweh is the God of the Bible. Allah is the god of the Quran. The two are not the same.

Both are the God of Abraham. Abraham had only one God. They are the same.

Quit trying to talk like you intimately know this religion. You apparently do not.

 

[Smurf]

To be Christian is to be Christ like.
To be Buddhist is to be Buddha like.
To be Muslim is to be Muhammad like.

You forgot:
To be American is to be Bush like.


question: Does Judaism have a prophet?

 

[Artman]

question: Does Judaism have a prophet?

Many. Moses, Noah, Daniel, Joseph, Isaiah, Elijah, Elisha, Jonah, were a few. Jesus was even considered by many Jews as a prophet (they don't believe he was more than that). The word prophet basically means to speak for God.

 

[Outcast]

Both are the God of Abraham. Abraham had only one God. They are the same.

Quit trying to talk like you intimately know this religion. You apparently do not.

I may not be intimate with Islam, but it seems I know more about it than you do. Just because the Arabs trace their ancestry back to Abraham through Ishmael, does not make Allah the God of Abraham. Yes, Abraham did worship one God, but Allah was not that god.

So you are saying that Christ is the son of Allah? And the Jews and Christians actually worship Allah without knowing it?

 

[Outcast]

You forgot:
To be American is to be Bush like.


question: Does Judaism have a prophet?

There was two class, major and minor prophets.
They were the ones that spent 1400 years writing the Bible. Interesting people. I don't believe any of them ask for the job and some tried to get out of it. None got rich doing it.


And to be Canadian is to be Martin like.

 

[studentx]

I may not be intimate with Islam, but it seems I know more about it than you do. Just because the Arabs trace their ancestry back to Abraham through Ishmael, does not make Allah the God of Abraham. Yes, Abraham did worship one God, but Allah was not that god.

So you are saying that Christ is the son of Allah? And the Jews and Christians actually worship Allah without knowing it?

Actually it is the same god. You didnt read the Quran did you?

 

[Outcast]

Actually it is the same god. You didnt read the Quran did you?

Yes , I have and Muhammad may have made that claim, but anyone one that is familiar with the Bible and the Quarn can easily see that they can't possible be the same. For example compare the story of the creation in the Bible with the story of creation in the Quarn. Why would Yahweh give Muhammad several different conflicting version of the creation? Also why would Yahweh change His name to Allah?

 

[studentx]

Yes , I have and Muhammad may have made that claim, but anyone one that is familiar with the Bible and the Quarn can easily see that they can't possible be the same. For example compare the story of the creation in the Bible with the story of creation in the Quarn. Why would Yahweh give Muhammad several different conflicting version of the creation? Also why would Yahweh change His name to Allah?

This isn't about you or your views. Like i said before, the more you study Islam the less you understand the giant majority of muslims.

Muslims believe they worship the same god as Jews and Christians. The Quran says that Christians and Jews have nothing to fear as long as they believe in Allah. Allah is arabic for one god, and there could be many reasons he wanted to be called like that. Especially since many ppl see Jesus as a god and Islam supposedly corrects this "mistake".
Also you forget that Muslims believe the bible has been falsified or corrupted over the years and the Quran corrects it and supercedes all previous scriptures. Yahweh didnt give Muhammed conflicting versions of creation, that was just a piece corruption by the Jews;)

 

[Artman]

So you are saying that Christ is the son of Allah? And the Jews and Christians actually worship Allah without knowing it?

Yeah, ain't that a kick in the head. Your knowledge of this religion seems to be culled from Islam hate sites. It's off-topic, biased, and does not reflect the views of the majority of Muslims. They say it's a religion of peace and you claim, through your conservative-Christian-point-of-view to say that it is one of hate.

I don't claim to know their religion. My claim is that a cursury study of any religion will not give much insight into the heart of its true practitioners. In fact, even people studying the books of their own religion often miss the point because of a lack of indepth knowledge of the author, the time it was written, the events surrounding it creation, how the work was interpreted, and how the modern audience finds inspiration in the passage.

What you see as a passage of hate can be interpreted totally different by someone else. Ask ten different people to read a passage from the Bible and you will get ten different interpretations.

Get back on topic, what has this to do with the acceptable number of casualties?

 

[russ_watters]

This duscussion is probably too far religious, but the way I see the "who'se god?" issue is pretty simple:

-The Jews worship one God.
-The Christians worship one God and are a branch off of Judaism.
-The Muslims worship one God and are a branch off of Judaism.

Therefore, they all worship the same god, just in different ways. Isn't that logical?

You could even take it a step further to say that if there is one god, then anyone who worships one god worships the same god. Its kinda axiomatic.

In any case, the 3 major religions I noted above are so similar in their roots, there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to coexist.

 

[Smurf]

Exactly!

And to be Canadian is to be Martin like

my point being that I'm NOT like martin, americans ARN'T all like bush and muslims ARN'T all like muhammed, christians ARN'T like christ and jews ARN'T like any of their major prohpets.